Curious as hell about this.
Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an auto
tranny.
Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
Dart.
None of them had a tach.
I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never notice it as I
shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience") tells me.
Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for but…..my friends
and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics and almost all
– depending of course on the options they took – have tachometers on
them.
What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
transmission?
Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
tach’s are in cars today for a very simple reason. they make the idiots who
buy and drive them feel "sporty". it has nothing to do with finding the
shift points.a honda civic is a honda civic. but put a tach in it and a big
wing on the back, and it is a CIVIC!!! see? it gots a tach . now i can go
racing cause i gots a race car!!! its got to be one, cause its got a tach in
it!!
"TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Curious as hell about this.
> Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an auto
> tranny.
> Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
> Dart.
> None of them had a tach.
> I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never notice it as I
> shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience") tells me.
> Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for but…..my friends
> and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics and almost all
> – depending of course on the options they took – have tachometers on
> them.
> What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
> transmission?
> Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
> are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
"TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Curious as hell about this.
> Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an auto
> tranny.
> Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
> Dart.
> None of them had a tach.
> I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never notice it as I
> shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience") tells me.
> Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for but…..my friends
> and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics and almost all
> – depending of course on the options they took – have tachometers on
> them.
> What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
> transmission?
> Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
> are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
A tachometer on an automatic transmission vehicle can be very useful,
especially for one that is electronically controlled.
If I want to get the transmission to shift smoothly at something like 3000
rpm in each gear, I can gradually accelerate and then let off the throttle
just a bit as the tachmeter nearly reaches 3000 rpm, at which time, the
transmission will shift at the desired RPM’s.
Same goes for if I want the transmission to shift at 2500 RPM’s or less
(although that’s really slow acceleration generally only used in residential
areas) or at 4000 RPM’s or more (climbing a bit of a grade). The accurate
shifts at a given RPM can continue to occur until the transmission reaches
its final gear and torque converter lockup subseqently occurs, thanks to the
visual feedback of the tachometer.
After a while, I’ve learned the acceleration rates for shifting at a given
RPM, so I can maintain the throttle in a constant position such that the
transmission shifts smoothly at the desired RPM.
Without a tachometer, I could judge by engine sound, but not know the exact
RPM’s. And, it’s also helpful to know when the engine is approaching redline
under more spritied acceleration (e.g., flooring it on a very short
interstate onramp that merges rather than joins with an extra lane, giving
very little distance to get up to the 65mph freeway speed) rather than just
waiting for the transmission to automatically shift to the next gear when
the engine hits redline.
Since my car’s specifications indicate a maximum of 126 horsepower at 5500
RPM, there’s really no need to exceed 5500 RPM, but I wouldn’t know if I
reached or exceeded that max engine torque RPM under higher acceleration
without a tachometer.
Others may vary in their usage or requirements for a tachometer.
As Tom said, to make you think you got a sporty car.
Useless as an udder on a turtle for most drivers.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> "TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
> news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
> > Curious as hell about this.
> > Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an auto
> > tranny.
> > Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
> > Dart.
> > None of them had a tach.
> > I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never notice it as I
> > shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience") tells me.
> > Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for but…..my friends
> > and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics and almost all
> > – depending of course on the options they took – have tachometers on
> > them.
> > What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
> > transmission?
> > Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
> > are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
> A tachometer on an automatic transmission vehicle can be very useful,
> especially for one that is electronically controlled.
> If I want to get the transmission to shift smoothly at something like 3000
> rpm in each gear, I can gradually accelerate and then let off the throttle
> just a bit as the tachmeter nearly reaches 3000 rpm, at which time, the
> transmission will shift at the desired RPM’s.
> Same goes for if I want the transmission to shift at 2500 RPM’s or less
> (although that’s really slow acceleration generally only used in residential
> areas) or at 4000 RPM’s or more (climbing a bit of a grade). The accurate
> shifts at a given RPM can continue to occur until the transmission reaches
> its final gear and torque converter lockup subseqently occurs, thanks to the
> visual feedback of the tachometer.
> After a while, I’ve learned the acceleration rates for shifting at a given
> RPM, so I can maintain the throttle in a constant position such that the
> transmission shifts smoothly at the desired RPM.
> Without a tachometer, I could judge by engine sound, but not know the exact
> RPM’s. And, it’s also helpful to know when the engine is approaching redline
> under more spritied acceleration (e.g., flooring it on a very short
> interstate onramp that merges rather than joins with an extra lane, giving
> very little distance to get up to the 65mph freeway speed) rather than just
> waiting for the transmission to automatically shift to the next gear when
> the engine hits redline.
> Since my car’s specifications indicate a maximum of 126 horsepower at 5500
> RPM, there’s really no need to exceed 5500 RPM, but I wouldn’t know if I
> reached or exceeded that max engine torque RPM under higher acceleration
> without a tachometer.
> Others may vary in their usage or requirements for a tachometer.
Same here. I use mine all the time for forcing up-shifts and as a
general check on engine performance. Example: Hmmm…last month I was
climbing this hill in 6th (od), what happened that I am now in 5th?. I
can’t feel or hear the diffeence in the 6/5 or 5/6 shift so see of the
pants is no indicator.
Harry K
TLittle <m…@mail.net> wrote in news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Curious as hell about this.
> Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an
auto
> tranny.
> Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
> Dart.
> None of them had a tach.
> I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never notice it as
I
> shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience") tells me.
> Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for but…..my friends
> and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics and almost
all
> – depending of course on the options they took – have tachometers on
> them.
> What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
> transmission?
> Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
> are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
ive found factory tach’s handy in diag. some questionable tranny shift
probs.without having to hook up the scanner…shift points, shift slip,
etc….i think your first RE; had it pegged, just another ‘do-dad’ like
auto vol. control and steering wheel radio controls….as much as they
say there cars are values they sure spend alot of time and money on crap
thats not needed…………………….kjun
H…@nospam.nix wrote:
> As Tom said, to make you think you got a sporty car.
> Useless as an udder on a turtle for most drivers.
I found it useful to diagnose a TCC problem in my X-car,
I could easily see what RPMs the clutch locked up and
unlocked, and when I noticed that it wasn’t locking and
unlocking at the proper RPMs for the conditions I knew
something was up. Sure enough, a few thousand miles later
it failed, but thanks to the tach I had plenty of warning
and was prepared to immediately repair the problem.
JazzMan
—
**********************************************************
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
**********************************************************
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." – Wendell Berry
**********************************************************
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:52:40 GMT TLittle <m…@mail.net> wrote:
> What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
> transmission?
To use current-day terminology: it’s "bling".
–
remove MYSHOES to email
> Curious as hell about this.
Because it’s nice to know when your getting ready to "redline" when you have
your foot all the way to the floor.
"tom" <tjctransp…@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:%O9Xe.7626$IC3.6900@fe12.lga…
(fucking idiot text snipped)
I drive in Montana. It’s nice to know when I’m approaching redline on the
tach when I have my foot to the floor.
<H…@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:SXcXe.23$Ur.19@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net…
> As Tom said, to make you think you got a sporty car.
> Useless as an udder on a turtle for most drivers.
Unless you want to know when you’re getting ready to redline when the foot
is to the floor.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 07:52:40 GMT, TLittle <m…@mail.net> wrote:
>Curious as hell about this.
>Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an auto
>tranny.
>Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
>Dart.
>None of them had a tach.
>I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never notice it as I
>shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience") tells me.
>Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for but…..my friends
>and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics and almost all
>- depending of course on the options they took – have tachometers on
>them.
>What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
>transmission?
>Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
>are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
It tends to help diagnose problems with one’s transmission.
-LMB
"TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
> Curious as hell about this.
Well, if you want to hold a low gear for acceleration up a hill or
something, it’s nice to know how hard you’re thrashing the engine.
Or setting your idle speed….
Tell you what, why do cars have oil pressure warning lights? I mean, you
know if your car loses all oil pressure, right? The engine grinds to a halt
and seizes…
Why does your car have a temperature gauge? You’d know if it was overheating
by the clouds of steam…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
In article <432ddd72$…@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, Mark W <s@o> wrote:
>"TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
>news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
>> Curious as hell about this.
>Well, if you want to hold a low gear for acceleration up a hill or
>something, it’s nice to know how hard you’re thrashing the engine.
>Or setting your idle speed….
>Tell you what, why do cars have oil pressure warning lights? I mean, you
>know if your car loses all oil pressure, right? The engine grinds to a halt
>and seizes…
>Why does your car have a temperature gauge? You’d know if it was overheating
>by the clouds of steam…
It’s getting hard to find cars with oil pressure gauges today, and even
BMW is now promoting fake temperature gauges. Soon, even the idiot lights
will all be replaced by one red light that says REPLACE ENGINE.
–scott
—
"C’est un Nagra. C’est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Alan Johnson wrote:
> Unless you want to know when you’re getting ready to redline when the foot
> is to the floor.
We read what you had to say the first two times, idiot.
Because it’s nice to know when your getting ready to "redline" when you have
your foot all the way to the floor.
just had to say it too.
"TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> Curious as hell about this.
> Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an auto
> tranny.
> Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
> Dart.
> None of them had a tach.
> I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never notice it as I
> shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience") tells me.
> Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for but…..my friends
> and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics and almost all
> – depending of course on the options they took – have tachometers on
> them.
> What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an automatic
> transmission?
> Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
> are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
"Arif Khokar" <akhokar1…@wvu.edu> wrote in message
news:D6mXe.7334$cg.6209@news02.roc.ny…
> We read what you had to say the first two times, <idiot.
At least I don’t worship some child molesting prophet named Mohammed
"" wrote:
> "TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
> news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
> >
> > Curious as hell about this.
> >
> > Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy
> with an auto
> > tranny.
> >
> > Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge
> 3-on-the-tree
> > Dart.
> >
> > None of them had a tach.
> >
> > I presently drive a 5-speed sedan with a tach but I never
> notice it as I
> > shift based on what my ear (and obviously "experience")
> tells me.
> >
> > Obviously I understand what the tachometer is for
> but…..my friends
> > and relatives various vehicles are universally automatics
> and almost all
> > – depending of course on the options they took – have
> tachometers on
> > them.
> >
> > What’s the point of the tachometer on a vehicle with an
> automatic
> > transmission?
> >
> > Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer
> exists, why
> > are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
> >
> A tachometer on an automatic transmission vehicle can be very
> useful,
> especially for one that is electronically controlled.
>
> If I want to get the transmission to shift smoothly at
> something like 3000
> rpm in each gear, I can gradually accelerate and then let off
> the throttle
> just a bit as the tachmeter nearly reaches 3000 rpm, at which
> time, the
> transmission will shift at the desired RPM’s.
>
> Same goes for if I want the transmission to shift at 2500
> RPM’s or less
> (although that’s really slow acceleration generally only used
> in residential
> areas) or at 4000 RPM’s or more (climbing a bit of a grade).
> The accurate
> shifts at a given RPM can continue to occur until the
> transmission reaches
> its final gear and torque converter lockup subseqently occurs,
> thanks to the
> visual feedback of the tachometer.
>
> After a while, I’ve learned the acceleration rates for
> shifting at a given
> RPM, so I can maintain the throttle in a constant position
> such that the
> transmission shifts smoothly at the desired RPM.
>
> Without a tachometer, I could judge by engine sound, but not
> know the exact
> RPM’s. And, it’s also helpful to know when the engine is
> approaching redline
> under more spritied acceleration (e.g., flooring it on a very
> short
> interstate onramp that merges rather than joins with an extra
> lane, giving
> very little distance to get up to the 65mph freeway speed)
> rather than just
> waiting for the transmission to automatically shift to the
> next gear when
> the engine hits redline.
>
> Since my car’s specifications indicate a maximum of 126
> horsepower at 5500
> RPM, there’s really no need to exceed 5500 RPM, but I wouldn’t
> know if I
> reached or exceeded that max engine torque RPM under higher
> acceleration
> without a tachometer.
>
> Others may vary in their usage or requirements for a
> tachometer.
A tach is a whistle and bells item mostly these days. I use the one in
my truck towing sometimes because I know what RPM rpm is the most
efficent power and MPG wise when towing a heavy load. There is not
much gained by taking a engine to its power peak because the torque is
usually dropping off fast after 4000 RPM with most V8’s and it will
run the best and use the least fuel if kept within its best torque RPM
range when it is working hard. Also when towing if you are at 2500 RPM
or better under throttle your tranny will run cooler because you are
past the effective stall of your converter and when a tranny is
stalling under load it is making more heat.
–
Posted using the http://www.autoforumz.com interface, at author’s request
Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
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"Mark W" wrote:
>Tell you what, why do cars have oil pressure warning lights? I mean,
>you
>know if your car loses all oil pressure, right? The engine grinds to
a
>halt
>and seizes…
>Why does your car have a temperature gauge? You’d know if it was
>overheating by the clouds of steam…
If the idiot light for oil is working and you catch it when it first
comes on, you will limit any possible damage. Some people are more
likely to see a idot light than a gage too. The best setup would be
both (gage and light). I remember when cars came with hot and cold
idiot lights too for engine temp.
–
Posted using the http://www.autoforumz.com interface, at author’s request
Articles individually checked for conformance to usenet standards
Topic URL: http://www.autoforumz.com/General-Discussion-cars-automatic-transmiss…
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SnoMan wrote:
> If the idiot light for oil is working and you catch it when it first
> comes on, you will limit any possible damage. Some people are more
> likely to see a idot light than a gage too. The best setup would be
> both (gage and light). I remember when cars came with hot and cold
> idiot lights too for engine temp.
Some of ‘em still do. My VW has no temperature guage, just an idiot
light. It’s blue for cold, off for normal, red for hot.
-Keith
Probably cheaper to produce one instrument cluster for everybody in
models that can be bought with either an automatic or a stick, as is
often the case.
At the higher end of the market, it’s also useful for the growing
number of automatics that you can optionally run by hand.
With LCD’s getting cheaper and faster and brighter, I wonder when (at
least in performance cars) they’re going to start superimposing a
virtual indicator on a display of power and torque curves, dyno-tested
for at least the engine and driveline package if not the individual
car.
Cheers,
–Joe
Owner of two tach-less automatics, two tach-less manuals, and, until
recently, one automatic with tach
Dave C. wrote:
> Well, my feelings on this subject are mixed. Your Otto Cycle engine in your
> auto-tranny equipped vehicle will be most fuel-efficient in the powerband
> range of certain RPMs.
> * Various sources say 40% of redline, 40-45% of redline, or 60% of RPM at
> maximum horsepower RPM. In the case of my wife’s car, this means it will be
> most fuel-efficient in a range from 3200-3600RPM.
The implicit assumption in that sort of "rule of thumb" is that you NEED
all the power that the engine can produce. Its a good rule for, say, an
industrial generator engine or irrigation well engine that is expected
to run most of its life at maximum load Cars cruising down the highway
NEVER need all the power that the engine can produce, so they play by a
different set of rules.
Cars have engines that are capable of producing several hundred
horsepower in order to achieve good acceleration, but when cruising
steady-state they require a few tens of horsepower at most. So how do
you run a 300-horsepower engine at an output of 35 horsepower and do it
most efficiently? It turns out that the best way is to "lug" the engine.
IOW, run it so that its way down on the lower RPM side of its torque
curve, but do so with the throttle held relatively wide open at that low
RPM. that’s why overdrive works so well. Lugging the engine does a few
things simultaneously:
1) it raises the starting pressure in the cylinders by decreasing the
amount of manifold vacuum. Higher pre-combustion pressure -> more
efficient combustion
2) it allows the spark timing to be retarded. Spark "advance" is really
only needed because when you operate an engine against very high
manifold vacuum (throttle mostly closed) you are LOWERING the starting
cylinder pressure so much that the burn rate is reduced, so that in turn
you need to start the burn very early in order to finish it before the
exhaust valve opens. The downside to spark advance is that a portion of
the combustion cycle is working against the movement of the piston. If
you lug the engine with the throttle open, the pressure is high so the
burn rate is high, and you don’t need much spark advance, and therefore
less of the combustion cycle is spent working against the crankshaft.
The proof is in the pudding. If you look at that (otherwise useless
) tach in any modern car, you’ll see that when cruising in O/D at 70
mph, the engine is only turning 2000 RPM or even less. And this is
usually with engines that have redlines of 5000-7000 RPM and torque
peaks up at 3000-4000 RPM. By any rule of thumb relating to their
MAXUMUM power, the engines are being operated way, way off optimum. But
for the NEEDED power, they’re right in the sweet spot.
"TLittle" <m…@mail.net> wrote in message
news:432D1CDA.E029CA73@mail.net…
> Seriously, based on my understanding of WHY the tachometer exists, why
> are there tachs on vehicles with automatic transmissions?
Becasue the car makers think people want them. I like having one even if I
don’t need one.
Ed
> The implicit assumption in that sort of "rule of thumb" is that you NEED
> all the power that the engine can produce. Its a good rule for, say, an
> industrial generator engine or irrigation well engine that is expected
> to run most of its life at maximum load Cars cruising down the highway
> NEVER need all the power that the engine can produce, so they play by a
> different set of rules.
Ummmmm, no. The most fuel-efficient RPM of an Otto Cycle engine is well
below the RPM that will produce the most horsepower. "Lugging" the engine
is not fuel-efficient, as the engine RPM is too low. At low RPM, too much
energy is wasted as heat. (a lesser percentage of energy is converted to
kinetic energy while the engine is lugging) Overdrive is meant to improve
fuel efficiency at higher speeds. (OVER drive speeds) It can’t do this by
"lugging" the engine. It does this by reducing the RPM into a more
fuel-efficient range while still NOT lugging it. Good example: My car is
at 3500RPM/43%(redline) and .6 (of max horsepower RPM) at 78MPH in
OVERdrive, where it easily gets 42MPG. That’s just the way it was designed.
If I downshift it to drive, the most fuel-efficient
3500RPM/43%(redline)/.6(of max horsepower RPM) equates to exactly 55MPH. I
have no idea how fuel-efficient it is at 55MPH in drive, as there is nowhere
near me where I could safely test that. Even the highways posted at 55MPH
have average traffic speeds well in excess of 70MPH, and it’s just not a
good idea to hold a steady speed 20MPH below the flow in any lane. BUT, I
suspect my vehicle would be quite fuel-efficient at 55MPH, as that is how it
was designed. The most fuel-efficient RPM of my engine happens to fall
right AT 55MPH, when the car is in drive gear. No way was THAT a
coincidence, so it had to be by design.
Yet since I learned how to find the most fuel-efficient RPM of an engine, I
have discovered that a lot of vehicles are geared incorrectly. My wife’s
car is one of them. Her car should be most fuel-efficient at ~ 3400RPM, yet
it is hard to get her engine to even hit 3000 (without driving fast enough
to lose your license), which is the point of maximum torque. A lot of cars
I’ve driven have been similarly geared incorrectly. In one extreme example,
I drove a chevy with a 4-cylinder engine that rarely hit 2000RPM. It was
horrible, as far as fuel economy goes. Now I know why.
If "lugging" the engine was such a good idea, I’d expect to see more 7 or
8-speed trannies, both automatic and manual. That is, there should be more
"over"drive gears to keep the engine running really slow. But if the car is
geared correctly, only one overdrive gear is needed. This allows the car
engine to max out the EPA estimate at 55MPH (where it is tested, in drive
gear), and yet still get decent fuel economy closer to speeds that the car
is actually driven. Thus, more overdrive gears would be redundant on a
street-legal car. -Dave
TLittle wrote:
> Curious as hell about this.
> Was taught by the parents to drive in general on a 65 Chevy with an auto
> tranny.
> Then the parents taught me to drive a stick on a 67 Dodge 3-on-the-tree
> Dart.
> None of them had a tach.
A better question would be, "Why do modern cars have useless instruments
like a Tach, but lack useFUL instruments like oil pressure gauges
calibrated in PSI, voltmeters calibrated in volts, or better yet
ammeters." Oil temp and transmission temp gauges would be kinda nice
too, especially when you’re towing. The WORST of all are cars with a
tach and NO other gauges, just idiot lights.
FWIW- only one of my automatic cars (1993 Vison TSi) has a tach, and no
I never "use" it. It is kinda nice to see when the torque convertor
locks up to help save a little gasoline, but that’s about it.