> : I don’t think anyone will argue when I say that the handling
> ability of these
> : cars is nowhere near that of the Corrado. They may be as quick
> down the line
> : but that doesn’t tell the whole story.
>
> I can’t speak for the GSX, but I know for a fact that MR2 Turbos
> (any
> year) will out handle any Corrado (all things stock, of course).
> Look at some #’s (from Road&Track Sept. ’93):
>
> 0-60 1/4-mile 60-0 skidpad slalom
> Toyota MR2 Turbo 6.2 14.7 142 .86 64.5
> VW Corrado SLC 6.9 15.5 154 .86 61.0
>
> Units are s/s/ft/g/mph.
>
> As you can see, only the skidpad #’s are equal.
> Corrados are nice cars, but they’re still FWD.
Uhm, incase you haven’t figured out by now, skidpad has very little to do with
handling. Skidpad is measured by driving around in a 300ft diameter. In
essence, the car drives around a circle, faster and faster till it skids out.
Time for the fastest lap is converted into g’s. I always felt that it was more
a test of tires than actual handling: And the Corrado stock, doesn’t have as
fancy tires as the Toyota MR-2. VW now puts Goodyear Eagle GA tires on the
Corrado for N.America. These tires are the same ones found on Lexii LS 400, and
Cadillacs. They’re more of a comfort tire than a sports tire. If we used
sticky tires, a Ford Ranger could get decent skid-pad numbers. Yet it would
say nothing about how a car reacts around a corner, and how easy it would be to
control it, once it lost traction. The test in Road&Track may have been on
Continental Sports Contact. These tires have done so badly that VW has
recalled them. First thing I’d do would be to get a set of Yokos or Dunlops.
The reason that VW has put such sub-standard sports tires on the Corrado, has
to do with the buyer. The Corrado is much more of a practical car than the
MR-2, being a true 4 seater, and with very decent trunk space…yet does it
handle!
The Road & Track test was carried out in 1993. Since then VW has
improved the axle of the Corrado: They have the new Plus-Axle design, which
gives increased comfort and better handling. I don’t have any numbers, but I’m
sure that it would do more decently than the MR-2. This person I know, who is
a member of the BMW Car Club of America, has both the "new" Corrado, and a
previous generation BMW M3, and he says that handling is equal. Reliable
source? I don’t know. Also it is important to note, that the Toyota MR-2 is
designed primarily for the North American market. Japanese are hardly able to
drive as fast as Americans. That’s why, for N.American speeds, the Corrado has
lesser performance numbers. Take it up to Autobahn speeds, and test it the way
a German car magazine, "Auto Motor Und Sport" does, and you’ll see the MR-2
lagging behind the Corrado. Beautifully illustrated by the difference in the
European M3, and the N.American M3. Almost equivalent performance numbers, but
take it up to real speed and it’s a different story.
I wonder, on the net, how many VW Corrado SLC drivers would be willing
to trade their VW for a Toyota MR2. And could we hear from an owner, who has
driven both the Toy-o-ta, and the VW hard?
I agree with the previous poster, the Toyota MR-2 doesn’t come close to the
best handling FWD on this planet.
ryan.ra…@dynamite.com wrote:
: > Look at some #’s (from Road&Track Sept. ’93):
: >
: > 0-60 1/4-mile 60-0 skidpad slalom
: > Toyota MR2 Turbo 6.2 14.7 142 .86 64.5
: > VW Corrado SLC 6.9 15.5 154 .86 61.0
: Uhm, incase you haven’t figured out by now, skidpad has very little to do with
: handling. Skidpad is measured by driving around in a 300ft diameter. In
: essence, the car drives around a circle, faster and faster till it skids out.
: Time for the fastest lap is converted into g’s. I always felt that it was more
: a test of tires than actual handling: And the Corrado stock, doesn’t have as
: fancy tires as the Toyota MR-2. VW now puts Goodyear Eagle GA tires on the
: Corrado for N.America. These tires are the same ones found on Lexii LS 400, and
: Cadillacs. They’re more of a comfort tire than a sports tire. If we used
: sticky tires, a Ford Ranger could get decent skid-pad numbers. Yet it would
: say nothing about how a car reacts around a corner, and how easy it would be to
: control it, once it lost traction. The test in Road&Track may have been on
: Continental Sports Contact. These tires have done so badly that VW has
: recalled them. First thing I’d do would be to get a set of Yokos or Dunlops.
You haven’t accounted for the fact that the MR2 Turbo has better slalom
speed than the Corrado SLC. I would say that this has more to do with
SUSPENSION than tires.
: The reason that VW has put such sub-standard sports tires on the Corrado, has
: to do with the buyer. The Corrado is much more of a practical car than the
: MR-2, being a true 4 seater, and with very decent trunk space…yet does it
: handle!
: The Road & Track test was carried out in 1993. Since then VW has
: improved the axle of the Corrado: They have the new Plus-Axle design, which
: gives increased comfort and better handling. I don’t have any numbers, but I’m
: sure that it would do more decently than the MR-2.
Are you so sure? Show me some facts. Toyota also altered the MR2′s
suspension geometry to improve suspension, and very few cars in this
class can match the MR2′s suspension adjustability.
: This person I know, who is
: a member of the BMW Car Club of America, has both the "new" Corrado, and a
: previous generation BMW M3, and he says that handling is equal. Reliable
: source? I don’t know. Also it is important to note, that the Toyota MR-2 is
: designed primarily for the North American market. Japanese are hardly able to
: drive as fast as Americans. That’s why, for N.American speeds, the Corrado has
: lesser performance numbers. Take it up to Autobahn speeds, and test it the way
: a German car magazine, "Auto Motor Und Sport" does, and you’ll see the MR-2
: lagging behind the Corrado. Beautifully illustrated by the difference in the
: European M3, and the N.American M3. Almost equivalent performance numbers, but
: take it up to real speed and it’s a different story.
"Real" speeds are either road speeds (0-60mph), race speeds (1/4-mile),
or track speeds. How often does an American driver reach or exceed
100mph? Performance at "Autobaun speeds" only matters to those who drive
the Autobaun. Otherwise, it’s a matter of gearing, and of excuses.
: I wonder, on the net, how many VW Corrado SLC drivers would be willing
: to trade their VW for a Toyota MR2. And could we hear from an owner, who has
: driven both the Toy-o-ta, and the VW hard?
: I agree with the previous poster, the Toyota MR-2 doesn’t come close to the
: best handling FWD on this planet.
Ask anyone who autocrosses/races a RWD or AWD car if they’d trade an MR2
for a FWD Corrado…
Then ask anyone at Ferrari, Labo’, Lotus, Mazda, Toyota, Nissan, Jaguar,
Porsche, Ford, GM, or even Chrysler which is better for high-performance:
FWD or RWD.
Don’t get me wrong… I _really_ like Corrados. My friend’s girlfriend
has a ’94 VR6, and it performs VERY well… But not as well as an MR2 Turbo.
—
(. )(. )
————————————###–\/\/\/\/–###——-
Darin Ray Hamilton
Faculty of Management, University of Calgary, Alberta, CANADA
> You haven’t accounted for the fact that the MR2 Turbo has better
> slalom
> speed than the Corrado SLC. I would say that this has more to do
> with
> SUSPENSION than tires.
No, a suspension is only as good as it’s weakest link. If you put lesser tires
on the MR-2, it would get lesser slalom numbers. Besides VW, has revised the
suspension. The slalom is also around the speed that the MR-2 does very well,
being a turbo.
> Are you so sure? Show me some facts. Toyota also altered the MR2′s
>
> suspension geometry to improve suspension, and very few cars in this
>
> class can match the MR2′s suspension adjustability.
Really? What did they do? Just changing a few suspension geometry angles
isn’t gonna do much. Toyota just decided to sacrifice a bit of ride for
handling. VW however, changed the whole axle design. Maybe someone has
"European Car" test numbers for a new Corrado. Very few cars can match the
MR2′s suspension adjustibility? Can you adjust the shocks for ride height, and
or ride stiffness? No. I think then adjustibility is not the right
description.
> "Real" speeds are either road speeds (0-60mph), race speeds
> (1/4-mile),
> or track speeds. How often does an American driver reach or exceed
> 100mph? Performance at "Autobaun speeds" only matters to those who
> drive
> the Autobaun. Otherwise, it’s a matter of gearing, and of excuses.
You kind of contradict youself later on when you mention FWDs doing poorly on
the Autocross. More Americans will drive their Corrados and MR2s at more than
100 MPH, then take it to the autocross. And how many exceed 100 mph? I do it
almost every day on my Passat. Not a difficult thing to do. I’ve driven many
cars, and nothing comes close to a German car at speed. While other brake
systems get weaker at higher speeds, Autobahn bred cars’ brakes become more
powerful. Also, the MR 2, is a lot more pricey than the Corrado. The
performance out of the turbocharged, small block is impressive, but the VR-6
engine in the Corrado is detuned. Spend a bit of cash, and you can match the
MR-2s performance. It’s harder for the MR-2, as that little engine is running
close to its limit. Put a turbocharger on the VR-6 and you get 286 hp. What
will kick what now? Hehe, matter of gearing? Yeah, I frequently enjoy
creaming Japanese sports sedans, and even lower-end Jap & American sports cars
on the highway with the Passat. Love the looks on their faces. No excuses,
these cars are designed for speeds way above 65 mph, moreso in the Corrado’s
case.
> Ask anyone who autocrosses/races a RWD or AWD car if they’d trade an
> MR2
> for a FWD Corrado…
> Then ask anyone at Ferrari, Labo’, Lotus, Mazda, Toyota, Nissan,
> Jaguar,
> Porsche, Ford, GM, or even Chrysler which is better for
> high-performance:
> FWD or RWD.
Don’t get me wrong. I would love for the Corrado to have been RWD, or AWD,
with the Syncro system (unnecessary weight penalty tho.) But VW engineers have
done an amazing job with the FWD Corrado. Don’t worry too much about handling
characteristics of FWDs, as the Corrado has traction control. I’m just saying
that it is possible for a FWD Corrado to handle better than the RWD MR-2. It’s
not like every RWD car is a better handler than a FWD. Anyway, with traction
control, one can hardly use the benefits of a RWD (cornering). For
acceleration tho, RWD is superior.
> Don’t get me wrong… I _really_ like Corrados. My friend’s
> girlfriend
> has a ’94 VR6, and it performs VERY well… But not as well as an
> MR2 Turbo.
It is driven by a girlfriend. Enough said.
Also, I wonder about the drive. I’ve driven many new Toyotas, not the MR-2 tho,
and they all drive like crap in comparison to VWs. I’m not talking about
refinement. Yeah most Toyotas are more refined than the average VW. Controls,
Japanese are A1s, at the feel of knobs and dials. I couldn’t care less about
that tho. If it works, it works. What I’m talking about is the driving
pleasure (Fahrvergnugen) that is missing from souless Toyotas. Brake pedals
are annoyingly light, and without feel. Steering is as smooth as silk, but
overly light, and have an artificial feel to them. I guess I’ve just been
spoiled on German cars. It’s like the difference between Floorsheims and
Ferragamo shoes, both suit the purpose very well, but one has an undescribable feeling.
Your Reply. Regards.
ryan.ra…@dynamite.com wrote:
: > Are you so sure? Show me some facts. Toyota also altered the MR2′s
: > suspension geometry to improve suspension, and very few cars in this
: > class can match the MR2′s suspension adjustability.
: Really? What did they do? Just changing a few suspension geometry angles
: isn’t gonna do much. Toyota just decided to sacrifice a bit of ride for
: handling. VW however, changed the whole axle design. Maybe someone has
: "European Car" test numbers for a new Corrado. Very few cars can match the
: MR2′s suspension adjustibility? Can you adjust the shocks for ride height, and
: or ride stiffness? No. I think then adjustibility is not the right
: description.
No. I mean adjustability in terms of toe, camber, and caster. I don’t
know the specifics. If you want more info, I can refer you to an auto-x-er.
: You kind of contradict youself later on when you mention FWDs doing poorly on
: the Autocross. More Americans will drive their Corrados and MR2s at more than
: 100 MPH, then take it to the autocross. And how many exceed 100 mph? I do it
: almost every day on my Passat. Not a difficult thing to do. I’ve driven many
: cars, and nothing comes close to a German car at speed. While other brake
: systems get weaker at higher speeds, Autobahn bred cars’ brakes become more
: powerful. Also, the MR 2, is a lot more pricey than the Corrado.
No it isn’t. They’re in the same class. Here’s ’93 prices (close enough
to be relevant) from Nov. ’93 Motortrend:
MR2 Turbo $20,278/$24,113 (base/tested)
Corrado SLC $21,840/$23,035 (base/tested)
: The performance out of the turbocharged, small block is impressive, but the
: VR-6 engine in the Corrado is detuned. Spend a bit of cash, and you can
: match the MR-2s performance.
: It’s harder for the MR-2, as that little engine is running
: close to its limit. Put a turbocharger on the VR-6 and you get 286 hp. What
: will kick what now? Hehe, matter of gearing?
For less $$$ than adding a blower to a Corrado:
Larger intercooler, increase turbo boost to 17-18psi, 75hp NOS kit.
MUCH more than 286bhp.
You put $2000 into a Corrado, I’ll put $2000 into an MR2 Turbo, and we’ll
see which one performs better. Hell… for $2000 my 1.6L ’86 MR2 could
have 210bhp and could blow any stock Corrado off the road!
(Yes, I did price this out at a local performance shop, and that 210bhp
is WITHOUT a blower of any kind. I’m talking performance exhaust, a 1.8L
stroker kit, dual side-draft Weber carbs, etc…)
: Yeah, I frequently enjoy
: creaming Japanese sports sedans, and even lower-end Jap & American sports cars
: on the highway with the Passat. Love the looks on their faces. No excuses,
: these cars are designed for speeds way above 65 mph, moreso in the Corrado’s
: case.
And I love blowing GTI’s off the line in my ’86 MR2. I prefer a 0-60
advantage, any day. If I didn’t, I’d have a GTI.
: Don’t get me wrong. I would love for the Corrado to have been RWD, or AWD,
: with the Syncro system (unnecessary weight penalty tho.) But VW engineers have
: done an amazing job with the FWD Corrado. Don’t worry too much about handling
: characteristics of FWDs, as the Corrado has traction control. I’m just saying
: that it is possible for a FWD Corrado to handle better than the RWD MR-2. It’s
: not like every RWD car is a better handler than a FWD. Anyway, with traction
: control, one can hardly use the benefits of a RWD (cornering). For
: acceleration tho, RWD is superior.
For cornering, RWD also allows the driver more control over
understeer/oversteer. All you can do in a FWD car is pray, unless you’re
REALLY good and slide with the e-brake (risky!). Also, racing with
traction control enabled is much more of a detriment than an advantage.
: > Don’t get me wrong… I _really_ like Corrados. My friend’s girlfriend
: > has a ’94 VR6, and it performs VERY well… But not as well as an
: > MR2 Turbo.
: It is driven by a girlfriend. Enough said.
No. It’s driven by her boyfriend, who owns an ’88 Mustang Cobra. He
says it goes "pretty good".
: Also, I wonder about the drive. I’ve driven many new Toyotas, not the MR-2 tho,
: and they all drive like crap in comparison to VWs. I’m not talking about
: refinement. Yeah most Toyotas are more refined than the average VW. Controls,
: Japanese are A1s, at the feel of knobs and dials. I couldn’t care less about
: that tho. If it works, it works. What I’m talking about is the driving
: pleasure (Fahrvergnugen) that is missing from souless Toyotas. Brake pedals
: are annoyingly light, and without feel. Steering is as smooth as silk, but
: overly light, and have an artificial feel to them. I guess I’ve just been
: spoiled on German cars. It’s like the difference between Floorsheims and
: Ferragamo shoes, both suit the purpose very well, but one has an undescribable feeling.
MR2′s have a harsh ride, but their designed for performance 1st and
convenience 2nd (hence, 2 seats).
Just ask ANY MR2 owner if their car feels "souless". Mid-engined cars
have more character than any other car, once you get used to the layout.
And no MR2 owner has ever complained that their steering is too "light".
At high speeds it takes time to get used to the light front-end
(especially on MkI MR2′s, with the 40/60 weight dist’n), but 95% of MR2′s
don’t have power steering, which wrecks your road feel at <highway speeds.
If Corrados came RWD, I’d buy one. Since they don’t, the MR2 Turbo will
always be my car of choice–not that I own one… YET
—
(. )(. )
————————————###–\/\/\/\/–###——-
Darin Ray Hamilton
Faculty of Management, University of Calgary, Alberta, CANADA
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
> > : I don’t think anyone will argue when I say that the handling
> > ability of these
> > : cars is nowhere near that of the Corrado. They may be as quick
> > down the line
> > : but that doesn’t tell the whole story.
> > I can’t speak for the GSX, but I know for a fact that MR2 Turbos
> > (any
> > year) will out handle any Corrado (all things stock, of course).
> > Look at some #’s (from Road&Track Sept. ’93):
> > 0-60 1/4-mile 60-0 skidpad slalom
> > Toyota MR2 Turbo 6.2 14.7 142 .86 64.5
> > VW Corrado SLC 6.9 15.5 154 .86 61.0
> > Units are s/s/ft/g/mph.
> > As you can see, only the skidpad #’s are equal.
> > Corrados are nice cars, but they’re still FWD.
>Uhm, incase you haven’t figured out by now, skidpad has very little to do with
>handling. Skidpad is measured by driving around in a 300ft diameter. In
>essence, the car drives around a circle, faster and faster till it skids out.
>Time for the fastest lap is converted into g’s. I always felt that it was more
>a test of tires than actual handling: And the Corrado stock, doesn’t have as
>fancy tires as the Toyota MR-2. VW now puts Goodyear Eagle GA tires on the
>Corrado for N.America. These tires are the same ones found on Lexii LS 400, and
>Cadillacs. They’re more of a comfort tire than a sports tire. If we used
>sticky tires, a Ford Ranger could get decent skid-pad numbers. Yet it would
>say nothing about how a car reacts around a corner, and how easy it would be to
>control it, once it lost traction. The test in Road&Track may have been on
>Continental Sports Contact. These tires have done so badly that VW has
>recalled them. First thing I’d do would be to get a set of Yokos or Dunlops.
>The reason that VW has put such sub-standard sports tires on the Corrado, has
>to do with the buyer. The Corrado is much more of a practical car than the
>MR-2, being a true 4 seater, and with very decent trunk space…yet does it
>handle!
> The Road & Track test was carried out in 1993. Since then VW has
>improved the axle of the Corrado: They have the new Plus-Axle design, which
>gives increased comfort and better handling. I don’t have any numbers, but I’m
>sure that it would do more decently than the MR-2. This person I know, who is
>a member of the BMW Car Club of America, has both the "new" Corrado, and a
>previous generation BMW M3, and he says that handling is equal. Reliable
>source? I don’t know. Also it is important to note, that the Toyota MR-2 is
>designed primarily for the North American market. Japanese are hardly able to
>drive as fast as Americans. That’s why, for N.American speeds, the Corrado has
>lesser performance numbers. Take it up to Autobahn speeds, and test it the way
>a German car magazine, "Auto Motor Und Sport" does, and you’ll see the MR-2
>lagging behind the Corrado. Beautifully illustrated by the difference in the
>European M3, and the N.American M3. Almost equivalent performance numbers, but
>take it up to real speed and it’s a different story.
> I wonder, on the net, how many VW Corrado SLC drivers would be willing
>to trade their VW for a Toyota MR2. And could we hear from an owner, who has
>driven both the Toy-o-ta, and the VW hard?
>I agree with the previous poster, the Toyota MR-2 doesn’t come close to the
>best handling FWD on this planet.
I don’t know what kind of argument is that. Maybe the German version is muchhhh
better than the one you can buy in North America. Maybe the skidpad number means
nothing. And I am sure a Ford ranger with nice tire can get better skidpad
number than the Corrado. If anyone has seen my previous posting, (with performance
number from Motor Trend), MR2-turbo out run the Corrado in every single
category. And if you are a real sports car driver, you would not really think
a FWD can come any close to a mid-engine rear wheel drive sport car. Get real.
Maybe you have a Corrado and you really like it. But hey, a mistake is a
mistake.
-frank
In article <Jun14.222925.37…@acs.ucalgary.ca> drham…@acs.ucalgary.ca (Darin Ray Hamilton) writes:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>ryan.ra…@dynamite.com wrote:
>: > Are you so sure? Show me some facts. Toyota also altered the MR2′s
>: > suspension geometry to improve suspension, and very few cars in this
>: > class can match the MR2′s suspension adjustability.
>: Really? What did they do? Just changing a few suspension geometry angles
>: isn’t gonna do much. Toyota just decided to sacrifice a bit of ride for
>: handling. VW however, changed the whole axle design. Maybe someone has
>: "European Car" test numbers for a new Corrado. Very few cars can match the
>: MR2′s suspension adjustibility? Can you adjust the shocks for ride height, and
>: or ride stiffness? No. I think then adjustibility is not the right
>: description.
>No. I mean adjustability in terms of toe, camber, and caster. I don’t
>know the specifics. If you want more info, I can refer you to an auto-x-er.
>: You kind of contradict youself later on when you mention FWDs doing poorly on
>: the Autocross. More Americans will drive their Corrados and MR2s at more than
>: 100 MPH, then take it to the autocross. And how many exceed 100 mph? I do it
>: almost every day on my Passat. Not a difficult thing to do. I’ve driven many
>: cars, and nothing comes close to a German car at speed. While other brake
>: systems get weaker at higher speeds, Autobahn bred cars’ brakes become more
>: powerful. Also, the MR 2, is a lot more pricey than the Corrado.
>No it isn’t. They’re in the same class. Here’s ’93 prices (close enough
>to be relevant) from Nov. ’93 Motortrend:
>MR2 Turbo $20,278/$24,113 (base/tested)
>Corrado SLC $21,840/$23,035 (base/tested)
>: The performance out of the turbocharged, small block is impressive, but the
>: VR-6 engine in the Corrado is detuned. Spend a bit of cash, and you can
>: match the MR-2s performance.
>: It’s harder for the MR-2, as that little engine is running
>: close to its limit. Put a turbocharger on the VR-6 and you get 286 hp. What
>: will kick what now? Hehe, matter of gearing?
>For less $$$ than adding a blower to a Corrado:
>Larger intercooler, increase turbo boost to 17-18psi, 75hp NOS kit.
>MUCH more than 286bhp.
>You put $2000 into a Corrado, I’ll put $2000 into an MR2 Turbo, and we’ll
>see which one performs better. Hell… for $2000 my 1.6L ’86 MR2 could
>have 210bhp and could blow any stock Corrado off the road!
>(Yes, I did price this out at a local performance shop, and that 210bhp
>is WITHOUT a blower of any kind. I’m talking performance exhaust, a 1.8L
>stroker kit, dual side-draft Weber carbs, etc…)
>: Yeah, I frequently enjoy
>: creaming Japanese sports sedans, and even lower-end Jap & American sports cars
>: on the highway with the Passat. Love the looks on their faces. No excuses,
>: these cars are designed for speeds way above 65 mph, moreso in the Corrado’s
>: case.
>And I love blowing GTI’s off the line in my ’86 MR2. I prefer a 0-60
>advantage, any day. If I didn’t, I’d have a GTI.
>: Don’t get me wrong. I would love for the Corrado to have been RWD, or AWD,
>: with the Syncro system (unnecessary weight penalty tho.) But VW engineers have
>: done an amazing job with the FWD Corrado. Don’t worry too much about handling
>: characteristics of FWDs, as the Corrado has traction control. I’m just saying
>: that it is possible for a FWD Corrado to handle better than the RWD MR-2. It’s
>: not like every RWD car is a better handler than a FWD. Anyway, with traction
>: control, one can hardly use the benefits of a RWD (cornering). For
>: acceleration tho, RWD is superior.
>For cornering, RWD also allows the driver more control over
>understeer/oversteer. All you can do in a FWD car is pray, unless you’re
>REALLY good and slide with the e-brake (risky!). Also, racing with
>traction control enabled is much more of a detriment than an advantage.
>: > Don’t get me wrong… I _really_ like Corrados. My friend’s girlfriend
>: > has a ’94 VR6, and it performs VERY well… But not as well as an
>: > MR2 Turbo.
>: It is driven by a girlfriend. Enough said.
>No. It’s driven by her boyfriend, who owns an ’88 Mustang Cobra. He
>says it goes "pretty good".
>: Also, I wonder about the drive. I’ve driven many new Toyotas, not the MR-2 tho,
>: and they all drive like crap in comparison to VWs. I’m not talking about
>: refinement. Yeah most Toyotas are more refined than the average VW. Controls,
>: Japanese are A1s, at the feel of knobs and dials. I couldn’t care less about
>: that tho. If it works, it works. What I’m talking about is the driving
>: pleasure (Fahrvergnugen) that is missing from souless Toyotas. Brake pedals
>: are annoyingly light, and without feel. Steering is as smooth as silk, but
>: overly light, and have an artificial feel to them. I guess I’ve just been
>: spoiled on German cars. It’s like the difference between Floorsheims and
>: Ferragamo shoes, both suit the purpose very well, but one has an undescribable feeling.
>MR2′s have a harsh ride, but their designed for performance 1st and
>convenience 2nd (hence, 2 seats).
>Just ask ANY MR2 owner if their car feels "souless". Mid-engined cars
>have more character than any other car, once you get used to the layout.
>And no MR2 owner has ever complained that their steering is too "light".
>At high speeds it takes time to get used to the light front-end
>(especially on MkI MR2′s, with the 40/60 weight dist’n), but 95% of MR2′s
>don’t have power steering, which wrecks your road feel at <highway speeds.
I’d have to wholeheartedly agree with this. I own an ’84 Fiero with a
weight dist somewhere damn close to 50/50 with driver and half a tank of gas.
I don’t find the steering at all light at high speeds, the shape of the nose
pushes it down. If anything it’s damn responsive, and my doctor’s MR2
feels exactly the same way (yes, he let me drive it once)
>If Corrados came RWD, I’d buy one. Since they don’t, the MR2 Turbo will
>always be my car of choice–not that I own one… YET
And once you get one, you will never want a front engined/fwd sports car
Ditto with power steering.
ever again (past experience).
Colin "I Hate Torque Steer" DeWolfe
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>–
> (. )(. )
>————————————###–\/\/\/\/–###——-
>Darin Ray Hamilton
>Faculty of Management, University of Calgary, Alberta, CANADA
In article <1994Jun14.230805.15…@newton.ccs.tuns.ca>,
dewol…@newton.ccs.tuns.ca (Colin G. DeWolfe) wrote:
> In article <Jun14.222925.37…@acs.ucalgary.ca> drham…@acs.ucalgary.ca (Darin Ray Hamilton) writes:
Ditto with power steering.
> >If Corrados came RWD, I’d buy one. Since they don’t, the MR2 Turbo will
> >always be my car of choice–not that I own one… YET
> And once you get one, you will never want a front engined/fwd sports car
> ever again (past experience).
Geez…have any of you guys actually DRIVEN both of the cars you are
talking about? I have…they’re both EXCELLENT cars. And the torque-
steer comment is not applicable to the Corrado SLC, BTW. When it comes to
wind-in-your-hair,impractical, fun motoring on a beautiful day, the
MR2 takes the cake. When it comes to an in-your-face all out maximum
smiles-per-mile vehicle that you can also live with as your only car,
the four-seater hatchback Corrado wins hands down.
How about: Morris Minor vs. F-150 as the next thread?
–
Kenneth.Finne…@nrlssc.navy.mil
get in / sit down / shut up / hold on
>No, a suspension is only as good as it’s weakest link. If you put lesser tires
>on the MR-2, it would get lesser slalom numbers. Besides VW, has revised the
>suspension. The slalom is also around the speed that the MR-2 does very well,
>being a turbo.
Finally something good about MR2, undeniable?? Right?
>Really? What did they do? Just changing a few suspension geometry angles
>isn’t gonna do much. Toyota just decided to sacrifice a bit of ride for
>handling. VW however, changed the whole axle design. Maybe someone has
>"European Car" test numbers for a new Corrado. Very few cars can match the
>MR2′s suspension adjustibility? Can you adjust the shocks for ride height, and
>or ride stiffness? No. I think then adjustibility is not the right
>description.
May be it is so good at the first place it doesn’t need to be "totally
redesigned". BTW, why did VW has to changed the whole axle design? Did
they goofed?
>You kind of contradict youself later on when you mention FWDs doing poorly on
>the Autocross. More Americans will drive their Corrados and MR2s at more than
>100 MPH, then take it to the autocross. And how many exceed 100 mph? I do it
>almost every day on my Passat. Not a difficult thing to do. I’ve driven many
>cars, and nothing comes close to a German car at speed.
I have to agree with you on this. I drive my MR2 turbo in excess of 100 mph
all the time, not a difficult thing to do. Mr King at L.A. drove his Hyundai
Excel, according to the LAPD, at 110, too.
>systems get weaker at higher speeds, Autobahn bred cars’ brakes become more
>powerful. Also, the MR 2, is a lot more pricey than the Corrado. The
>performance out of the turbocharged, small block is impressive, but the VR-6
>engine in the Corrado is detuned. Spend a bit of cash, and you can match the
>MR-2s performance. It’s harder for the MR-2, as that little engine is running
>close to its limit. Put a turbocharger on the VR-6 and you get 286 hp. What
>will kick what now? Hehe, matter of gearing? Yeah, I frequently enjoy
>creaming Japanese sports sedans, and even lower-end Jap & American sports cars
>on the highway with the Passat. Love the looks on their faces. No excuses,
>these cars are designed for speeds way above 65 mph, moreso in the Corrado’s
>case.
I don’t know about the price of a MR2 turbo in your area, but I got one last
year, with full options for 24500 out of door at San Jose California. Also
I don’t know why the Corrado engine is detuned, maybe the gears can’t handle
it? Chasiss?
Why you only beat up and "cream" those poor low-end Japanese & American sports cars
and the Japanese sports sedans? I bet you get a lot fun kicking little kids, too.
>Don’t get me wrong. I would love for the Corrado to have been RWD, or AWD,
>with the Syncro system (unnecessary weight penalty tho.) But VW engineers have
>done an amazing job with the FWD Corrado. Don’t worry too much about handling
>characteristics of FWDs, as the Corrado has traction control. I’m just saying
>that it is possible for a FWD Corrado to handle better than the RWD MR-2. It’s
>not like every RWD car is a better handler than a FWD. Anyway, with traction
>control, one can hardly use the benefits of a RWD (cornering). For
>acceleration tho, RWD is superior.
Sorry, VW can’t/don’t make a mid-engine, RWD Corrado, period. What kind of craps
is that "don’t worry too much about handling characteristics of FWDs". Yeh,
you are right. People would just crash them at corners and go buy a new one.
Give me a break, a FWD Corrado handles better than the RWD MR2! Get out of here!
>Also, I wonder about the drive. I’ve driven many new Toyotas, not the MR-2 tho,
>and they all drive like crap in comparison to VWs. I’m not talking about
>refinement. Yeah most Toyotas are more refined than the average VW. Controls,
He probably has never driven a Quantum or Vanagon before. Ha! Ha! Talk about
craps. BTW, he probably has not driven a Supra. You don’t know what you have
missed!
>Japanese are A1s, at the feel of knobs and dials. I couldn’t care less about
>that tho. If it works, it works. What I’m talking about is the driving
>pleasure (Fahrvergnugen) that is missing from souless Toyotas. Brake pedals
>are annoyingly light, and without feel. Steering is as smooth as silk, but
>overly light, and have an artificial feel to them. I guess I’ve just been
>spoiled on German cars. It’s like the difference between Floorsheims and
>Ferragamo shoes, both suit the purpose very well, but one has an undescribable feeling.
>Your Reply. Regards.
He said he is "spoiled" by the German cars (litsen, he said German cars, not VW).
I think I can agree with him on MB, Procshe, and BMW.
Remember you just said "If it works, it works." You are so easy to be spoiled.
Souless Toyota — amen, may you rest in peace.
I don’t want to argue with this fellow any more, its useless. He wants to
believe what he believe. And unfortunately, he wants us to believe that, too.
-Frank
In article <2tkvd5$…@aim.com>, fr…@aim.com (Frank Ip) writes:
…
|>
|> I don’t know what kind of argument is that. Maybe the German version is muchhhh
|> better than the one you can buy in North America. Maybe the skidpad number means
|> nothing. And I am sure a Ford ranger with nice tire can get better skidpad
|> number than the Corrado. If anyone has seen my previous posting, (with performance
|> number from Motor Trend), MR2-turbo out run the Corrado in every single
|> category. And if you are a real sports car driver, you would not really think
|> a FWD can come any close to a mid-engine rear wheel drive sport car. Get real.
|> Maybe you have a Corrado and you really like it. But hey, a mistake is a
|> mistake.
|>
|> -frank
|>
|>
|>
hey, what mistake? For fact I know that the German version is almost identical to the US version.
besides, if you are taking about a MR2 equipped with ABS, leather and basic stuff that the under-$25k SLC offers, you are looking at almost $30k, sure that MR2 has better numbers, but after test driving the two cars, I tend to agree with the opinion of an article by Automobile several issues back comparing the MR2 to the corrado. Corrado IS overall a stronger competitor. IT’s hard to describe in what way the SLC is superior until you drive one, but the overall feeling I experienced is much more firm, secure, and pleasing with the SLC. I could not really tell that the SLC is .7 sec slow in 0-60, nor could I really sense any noticable difference in breaking. However, I do like SLC’s exhaust note (even more of a beast than my 93 RX7 I’ll say), its wide range of strong torque, and the smoothness of the V6. (I did experience some not-so-smooth transition with the MR2 turbo.)
So I suggest that you don’t just read the numbers and reach the conclusion, go and run wild with one and tell us all about it before it’s too late. (sadly the SLC will be replaced by Golf GTi soon, hopefully the Gti is powered by the V6 as in European Version.)
john
In article <2to25m$…@larry.rice.edu> johnt…@owlnet.rice.edu (John Tsung-Zone Lee) writes:
> IT’s hard to describe in what way the SLC is superior until you drive one,
and
>So I suggest that you don’t just read the numbers and reach the conclusion,
> go and run wild with one and tell us all about it before it’s too late.
>
>john
This sums up this whole argument about these two cars. Don’t read the numbers,
drive the cars!!! If you drive both cars, and you enjoy the VW more, the VW is
better! If you enjoy the MR2 more, the MR2 is better! Who cares about the
numbers? They’re only for the "my dick is bigger than your dick" brigade.
Anthony Shaughnessy
to…@isltd.insignia.com
Anthony Shaughnessy (to…@mellor.isltd.insignia.com) wrote:
: This sums up this whole argument about these two cars. Don’t read the numbers,
: drive the cars!!! If you drive both cars, and you enjoy the VW more, the VW is
: better! If you enjoy the MR2 more, the MR2 is better! Who cares about the
: numbers? They’re only for the "my dick is bigger than your dick" brigade.
True. But when people make unsubstantiated remarks to the effect of "the
Corrado is much better than the MR2", I believe some proof to the
contrary is warranted. However, I can’t critisize anyone for buying
either car. They may both be a bit overpriced, but both are exceptional
sports cars, even though each takes a completely different performance
approach.
My humble verdict:
Corrado…more practical, slightly worse performance, German "feel"
MR2…….impractical, slightly better performance, MR-"feel"
(in case you don’t know, MR stands for Mid-engine Rear-wheel-drive)
Aside from the seating issue, it’s a question of RWD/FWD and turbo-4/v6.
—
(. )(. )
————————————###–\/\/\/\/–###——-
Darin Ray Hamilton
Faculty of Management, University of Calgary, Alberta, CANADA
>hey, what mistake? For fact I know that the German version is almost identical to the US version.
>besides, if you are taking about a MR2 equipped with ABS, leather and basic stuff that the under-$25k SLC offers, you are looking at almost $30k, sure that MR2 has better numbers, but after test driving the two cars, I tend to agree with the opinion of an article by Automobile several issues back comparing the MR2 to the corrado. Corrado IS overall a stronger competitor. IT’s hard to describe in what way the SLC is superior until you drive one, but the overall feeling I experienced is much more firm, secu
r
>e, and pleasing with the SLC. I could not really tell that the SLC is .7 sec slow in 0-60, nor could I really sense any noticable difference in breaking. However, I do like SLC’s exhaust note (even more of a beast than my 93 RX7 I’ll say), its wide range of strong torque, and the smoothness of the V6. (I did experience some not-so-smooth transition with the MR2 turbo.)
>So I suggest that you don’t just read the numbers and reach the conclusion, go and run wild with one and tell us all about it before it’s too late. (sadly the SLC will be replaced by Golf GTi soon, hopefully the Gti is powered by the V6 as in European Version.)
>john
Hey, go with your feelings. If you think Corrado is better than MR2 or RX-7, go for it. But what I
don’t understand is your argument. You think the Corrado is better but you can’t tell why (or just
"it feels better"). And don’t believe in numbers?? You couldn’t tell the Corrado is slower, you
couldn’t tell the difference between braking, and you think the Corrado has better torque!
Never mind. Go with your feelings.
And good luck.
-Frank
> >suspension. The slalom is also around the speed that the MR-2 does
> very well,
> >being a turbo.
> >
> Finally something good about MR2, undeniable?? Right?
Stop picking at straws, you equivocater, these are the facts. Memorize all the
magazines you read, and trust their judgement in picking the best cars. You
must be a "Consumer Report" sheep…I say Baaaa! To you.
> May be it is so good at the first place it doesn’t need to be
> "totally
> redesigned". BTW, why did VW has to changed the whole axle design?
> Did
> they goofed?
No, they did not goofed (sic). Car companies are constantly looking for ways
to improve their products, good example is the changing of the rear axle to the
Z-link on the E-36 325s. I haven’t heard any complaints about the handling of
previous Corrados, so your flaming assinine argument is totally….baaaa!
Sheep. "May be (sic) it is so good at (sic) the first place it doesn’t need
to be ‘totally redesigned’" Get a life! An unitelligent comment like this
serves only to weaken your argument…if it can be called an
argument…bahahhaaaa…(not a sheep noise).
> I have to agree with you on this. I drive my MR2 turbo in excess of
> 100 mph
> all the time, not a difficult thing to do. Mr King at L.A. drove
> his Hyundai
> Excel, according to the LAPD, at 110, too.
Trying to be sarcarstic? Yeah, ok, so you’re not so cool now that Mr. King has
taken a Hyundai up to sacred MR-2 territory…were you following his example
too? A Hi-yooon-die can do it so can my TOOO-yyyyooooTTTAAA!!….well BAAA! to
you..
> I don’t know about the price of a MR2 turbo in your area, but I got
> one last
> year, with full options for 24500 out of door at San Jose
> California. Also
> I don’t know why the Corrado engine is detuned, maybe the gears
> can’t handle
> it? Chasiss?
> Why you only beat up and "cream" those poor low-end Japanese &
> American sports cars
> and the Japanese sports sedans? I bet you get a lot fun kicking
> little kids, too.
Wow! The net admires your skill as a competent bargainer…had any help from
Consumer Reports, Dealer invoice price guide?
You don’t know why the Corrado engine is detuned? I don’t think I’ve heard
anyone ask me that before…but most people I know have I.Qs above the mean
room temperature. But you know sheep…they don’t think. The VW VR-6 engine
can be enhanced drastically. It doesn’t have a turbo, and there are a lot of
performance mods that can be done to it. And don’t give me any shit about how
the engine, in stock-form sucks. I have not come across anyone who has ever
said this. I’ve heard, many people say that it is one of the best 6 cylinder
engines. Gears, chassiss (sic) can’t handle the power? Shows how little you
know sucker…baaaaaa!
Why do I beat up and "cream" those poor low-end Japanese sports cars? Actually
I’ve figured it’s probably not the car’s fault…it’s the moron’s behind the
wheel.
Get a lot of fun kicking little kids? Grow up. I don’t think I ever used a
sentence like that in an argument, since I was a little tyke in elementary
school…and yes my dad drove me around in a BMW.
> Sorry, VW can’t/don’t make a mid-engine, RWD Corrado, period. What
> kind of craps
> is that "don’t worry too much about handling characteristics of
> FWDs". Yeh,
> you are right. People would just crash them at corners and go buy a
> new one.
> Give me a break, a FWD Corrado handles better than the RWD MR2! Get
> out of here!
Ok, I’ll bite…VW makes the Audi Quattro system, which is the most advanced 4
wheel drive system..and VW makes RWDs in the form of Porsches. VW has no lack
in the engineering department…Baaa! You don’t respect VWs…I can respect
you for that. You keep on driving your MR-2, until you meet something
concrete, and watch the car turn you into Japanese sushi. Why is the Corrado
FWD? It is a replacement for the Scirrocco which was FWD…Germans like
following traditions, and family similarities. Get out of here, I wouldn’t if
everybody did, cause I’m not a sheep….baaa!
> He probably has never driven a Quantum or Vanagon before. Ha! Ha!
> Talk about
> craps. BTW, he probably has not driven a Supra. You don’t know what
> you have
> missed!
Don’t make fun of older VWs. Volkswagen has a more cherished tradition, then
Toyota does. Making fun of the Vanagons? There is a loyal following for the
Vanagon BTW. Apparently, VW is proud of its heritage, as when I see some of
their brochures, or marketing videos, they usually have a blurb about their
past. Toyota on the other hand is embarrassed about its past, and has nothing
to show for it…decades of copying American and European engineering has paid
off for them. Talk about craps? Sorry haven’t played the game myself.
Not driven a Supra? Yeah, I would love to drive it, but I wouldn’t want to own
one. I have missed nothing, I’ve driven a friend’s MB 600 SL on a long trip,
and have rented a Testarossa for a day. Don’t need a Supra too add to my
experiences…but since "you love what toyota does for you" baaa! Follow
advertising hype.
> He said he is "spoiled" by the German cars (litsen, he said German
> cars, not VW).
> I think I can agree with him on MB, Procshe, and BMW.
> Remember you just said "If it works, it works." You are so easy to
> be spoiled.
> Souless Toyota — amen, may you rest in peace.
>
> I don’t want to argue with this fellow any more, its useless. He
> wants to
> believe what he believe. And unfortunately, he wants us to believe
> that, too.
>
> -Frank
Hey, I’m a proud VW owner, and driver. Germans do a lot of things similarly,
if you have driven many german cars, there is a definite commonality too them
be it BMW or VW. They all feel as if they were carved from a rock. May your
Toyota RIP (rust-in-peace). See, it’s not so nice when others wish death on
you is it? The Bell tolls for thee. I wouldn’t argue with you because you are
the epitome of a cliche. You flame other people for liking the Corrado more
than your beloved MR2…but you are entitled too your opinion…now is it so
wrong if we have ours?
Regards,
Ryan (The shepherd that has a sheep gone astray.)
>Stop picking at straws, you equivocater, these are the facts. Memorize all the
>magazines you read, and trust their judgement in picking the best cars. You
>must be a "Consumer Report" sheep…I say Baaaa! To you.
Hey, believe what you want to believe. BTW, I didn’t quote any
judgement from any consumer reports or magazines. I only stated
the performance data measured by a well known "sheepy" car magazine.
>Trying to be sarcarstic? Yeah, ok, so you’re not so cool now that Mr. King has
>taken a Hyundai up to sacred MR-2 territory…were you following his example
>too? A Hi-yooon-die can do it so can my TOOO-yyyyooooTTTAAA!!….well BAAA! to
>you..
And so is the Coooorrraado. It doesn’t take a race driver to go 100 in any modern
car nowadays. That’s the point. Sucker, get it??? Driving fast on a highway
at high speed is not the ultimate test for handling. Can’t you figure that?
>You don’t know why the Corrado engine is detuned? I don’t think I’ve heard
>anyone ask me that before…but most people I know have I.Qs above the mean
>room temperature. But you know sheep…they don’t think. The VW VR-6 engine
>can be enhanced drastically. It doesn’t have a turbo, and there are a lot of
>performance mods that can be done to it. And don’t give me any shit about how
>the engine, in stock-form sucks. I have not come across anyone who has ever
>said this. I’ve heard, many people say that it is one of the best 6 cylinder
>engines. Gears, chassiss (sic) can’t handle the power? Shows how little you
>know sucker…baaaaaa!
If you can’t read my tone in the posting, that’s too bad. "And don’t give me any shit
about how the engine, in stock-form sucks." — Get real dork! That tells you how little…
never mind.
Ok,Ok. The V6 in the Corrado is the best 6 cylinder ever built — happy now.
>Ok, I’ll bite…VW makes the Audi Quattro system, which is the most advanced 4
>wheel drive system..and VW makes RWDs in the form of Porsches. VW has no lack
>in the engineering department…Baaa! You don’t respect VWs…I can respect
>you for that. You keep on driving your MR-2, until you meet something
>concrete, and watch the car turn you into Japanese sushi. Why is the Corrado
>FWD? It is a replacement for the Scirrocco which was FWD…Germans like
>following traditions, and family similarities. Get out of here, I wouldn’t if
>everybody did, cause I’m not a sheep….baaa!
Because you are an expert and you suppose to know everything. Right! Happy now?
I kind of resent when you call me a sheep. But hey, with your infinite wisdom
I probably should not argue with you on that, too. Correct me if I’m wrong. Audi
created the Quattro system and VW bought Audi. VW didn’t MAKE the Quattro.
Porsche make great cars but VW doesn’t make Porsche. Can’t you tell? Maybe you
are a sheep, too…baaaaaa!
>Don’t make fun of older VWs. Volkswagen has a more cherished tradition, then
>Toyota does. Making fun of the Vanagons? There is a loyal following for the
>Vanagon BTW. Apparently, VW is proud of its heritage, as when I see some of
>their brochures, or marketing videos, they usually have a blurb about their
>past. Toyota on the other hand is embarrassed about its past, and has nothing
>to show for it…decades of copying American and European engineering has paid
>off for them. Talk about craps? Sorry haven’t played the game myself.
>Not driven a Supra? Yeah, I would love to drive it, but I wouldn’t want to own
>one. I have missed nothing, I’ve driven a friend’s MB 600 SL on a long trip,
>and have rented a Testarossa for a day. Don’t need a Supra too add to my
>experiences…but since "you love what toyota does for you" baaa! Follow
>advertising hype.
Older VWs are the glory of cherished tradition and heritage, older Toyota, or for that matter,
older cars other than VWs are trash. You are pretty opinionated! But hey, you are entitled
to your own opinion.
You have driven a Testarossa? Wow! But I think the Testarossa is a RWD. Am I wrong? And
how does it relate to a FWD VW Corrado? I don’t know the 0-60 for the Testarossa but the 0-60
for Supra is 4.9 second. Eventhough if it’s slower than a Testarossa, it’s still pretty
reputable. Does VW make anything like that?
I’m sorry I made a comment on the Vanagon. BTW, there are a lot of followers for voodoo,too.
And, since you don’t believe anything in advertising and consumer reports, I envy your
wisdom. I agree with you that advertising very often is misleading, and I recommend no
one to believe everything in any advertisment. But ad and consumers reports are also good
sources of information, and buyers can make their choice base on information (rather than
listen to some self-declared expert with twisted facts) from reliable sources. Right?
>Hey, I’m a proud VW owner, and driver. Germans do a lot of things similarly,
>if you have driven many german cars, there is a definite commonality too them
>be it BMW or VW. They all feel as if they were carved from a rock. May your
>Toyota RIP (rust-in-peace). See, it’s not so nice when others wish death on
>you is it? The Bell tolls for thee. I wouldn’t argue with you because you are
>the epitome of a cliche. You flame other people for liking the Corrado more
>than your beloved MR2…but you are entitled too your opinion…now is it so
>wrong if we have ours?
>Regards,
>Ryan (The shepherd that has a sheep gone astray.)
I am not here to VW-bashing. I just don’t think a FWD Corrado with less
horse power (178 vs 200), less braking (129ft vs 115ft 60mph-0), less slalom
(66mph vs 68), less torque (178@4200 vs 200@3200) can handle better than
a mid-engine rear wheel drive MR2. That’s all.
I have absolutely no doubt in German engineering. But a VW is not a Porsche.
Your argument of saying VW Corrado is better than a Toyota MR2 because it
"shares the same heritage and traditions" with a BMW or Porsche", (even
though every single performance data published in all major US car
magazines are telling the opposite) is just bullshit.
You read my posting as flaming people liking Corrado more than the MR2? Wrong.
Someone posted an article saying Corrado is better than Eclipse, MR2 and
RX-7, and I responsed with a posting with performance data from R&T for both Corrado
and MR2.
These data are not opinion. They are hard facts. And your reaction
was to tell people don’t believe in facts and believe what you say because you said so.
It’s not nice when others wish death on you. Since you did that to me, I
must also return my courtesy to you. May your VW passat wrap around a pole and
turn you into a German wurst. Alright, we are even now.
There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. But trying to twist facts to make
other people believe in you, IMHO, is wrong.
Have a nice day, and drive safely in your VOOOOOOOlkswagen
-Frank
Did anybody else get wind of discontinuing the Corrado when the new GTIs come
out in the fall?
> Hey, believe what you want to believe. BTW, I didn’t quote any
> judgement from any consumer reports or magazines. I only stated
> the performance data measured by a well known "sheepy" car magazine.
And I did not find any problems in your data, I was trying to say, that the VW
Corrado, is at a disadvantage because it is outfitted with touring tires rather
than Sport tires like the MR-2. 0-60 times should not make a difference, but
handling is subjective.
> And so is the Coooorrraado. It doesn’t take a race driver to go 100
> in any modern
> car nowadays. That’s the point. Sucker, get it??? Driving fast on
> a highway
> at high speed is not the ultimate test for handling. Can’t you
> figure that?
That’s what the nation should be afraid off. People who think that it is safe
to drive 100 mph in any "modern car." It isn’t safe. MR-2 would do well, but
it’s a sports car. German cars on the other hand, are designed to run on the
autobahn, and consequently are safer at higher speeds than their Japanese
counterparts. I never said that driving fast on a highway is the ultimate test
for handling. Learn to read English properly, before you misquote me.
I implied that the Corrado is more stable at say 230 km/h then the MR-2, as it
has better weight, weight distribution.
> If you can’t read my tone in the posting, that’s too bad. "And
> don’t give me any shit
> about how the engine, in stock-form sucks." — Get real dork! That
> tells you how little…
> never mind.
> Ok,Ok. The V6 in the Corrado is the best 6 cylinder ever built —
> happy now.
Yeah, the VEE-6 in the Corrado is unique, and in my opinion a very impressive
engine which makes very nice noises. A previous poster said that the MR-2 was
harsh at certain RPMs. Ok.
> Because you are an expert and you suppose to know everything.
> Right! Happy now?
> I kind of resent when you call me a sheep. But hey, with your
> infinite wisdom
> I probably should not argue with you on that, too. Correct me if
> I’m wrong. Audi
> created the Quattro system and VW bought Audi. VW didn’t MAKE the
> Quattro.
> Porsche make great cars but VW doesn’t make Porsche. Can’t you
> tell? Maybe you
> are a sheep, too…baaaaaa!
You ARE wrong…what would a bonehead Toyota driver know about VWs history
anyway? VW has owned Audi long before the Quattro system was around. Figure
out what the 4 rings on Audi mean before you plague the net, with your
ignorance. VW and Audi, share many things. VW does make Porsches, and Porsche
has made some cars for VW. When Porsche makes money, who do you think gets all
their profit? The parent company VW AG. does. You’re a serious moron, it’s
just like insisting that Toyota doesn’t make Lexus.
> Older VWs are the glory of cherished tradition and heritage, older
> Toyota, or for that matter,
> older cars other than VWs are trash. You are pretty opinionated!
> But hey, you are entitled
> to your own opinion.
> You have driven a Testarossa? Wow! But I think the Testarossa is a
> RWD. Am I wrong? And
> how does it relate to a FWD VW Corrado? I don’t know the 0-60 for
> the Testarossa but the 0-60
> for Supra is 4.9 second. Eventhough if it’s slower than a
> Testarossa, it’s still pretty
> reputable. Does VW make anything like that?
> I’m sorry I made a comment on the Vanagon. BTW, there are a lot of
> followers for voodoo,too.
> And, since you don’t believe anything in advertising and consumer
> reports, I envy your
> wisdom. I agree with you that advertising very often is misleading,
> and I recommend no
> one to believe everything in any advertisment. But ad and consumers
> reports are also good
> sources of information, and buyers can make their choice base on
> information (rather than
> listen to some self-declared expert with twisted facts) from
> reliable sources. Right?
Did I say older cars other than VW were crap? I specifically said Toyota.
Stop trying to pull support in from other sides…are you insecure about
something? Maybe that’s why it makes you feel greater having the vibrations of
a turbo MR-2 between your legs. As I said before a superior 0-60 time does not
a good car make. Anybody can understand that…maybe you can’t.
"Twisted facts?" We’re you the same baby that blubbered something to the
effect of, "Maybe the MR-2s suspension was so good they did not have to change
it."
> I am not here to VW-bashing. I just don’t think a FWD Corrado with
> less
> horse power (178 vs 200), less braking (129ft vs 115ft 60mph-0),
> less slalom
> (66mph vs 68), less torque (178@4200 vs 200@3200) can handle better
> than
> a mid-engine rear wheel drive MR2. That’s all.
> I have absolutely no doubt in German engineering. But a VW is not a
> Porsche.
> Your argument of saying VW Corrado is better than a Toyota MR2
> because it
> "shares the same heritage and traditions" with a BMW or Porsche",
> (even
> though every single performance data published in all major US car
> magazines are telling the opposite) is just bullshit.
>
> You read my posting as flaming people liking Corrado more than the
> MR2? Wrong.
> Someone posted an article saying Corrado is better than Eclipse, MR2
> and
> RX-7, and I responsed with a posting with performance data from R&T
> for both Corrado
> and MR2.
> These data are not opinion. They are hard facts. And your reaction
> was to tell people don’t believe in facts and believe what you say
> because you said so.
> It’s not nice when others wish death on you. Since you did that to
> me, I
> must also return my courtesy to you. May your VW passat wrap around
> a pole and
> turn you into a German wurst. Alright, we are even now.
>
> There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. But trying to twist
> facts to make
> other people believe in you, IMHO, is wrong.
>
> Have a nice day, and drive safely in your VOOOOOOOlkswagen
Do you have difficulty understanding what is before you…or does your Toyota
have such bad exhaust emissions, that it is affecting your perception? I never
ever said the VW Corrado was superior to the MR-2 because it shares heritage
and traditions with BMW and Porsche. Cars are cars, how each individual car is
designed tells alot about it. If a Toyota Camry were badged a VW, anyone
driving it would know that it was not a VW. In this respect, is the Corrado
superior to a structurely inferior MR-2. Hahah, I always laugh when a Japanese
car driver thinks that their cars are safer than the German counterpart. Ok,
ok, get out your NHTSA crash test results…quote ‘em and believe
them…..baaaa!
If you were to ever argue constructively, I would not be flaming your ass right
now, but because you show your ignorance..I just can’t help myself.
Regards, Ryan…..(whose VW is looking for a pole to wrap into a German Wurst.)
Yup, those German cars are amazing, they convert poles into German
Wurst…..Verdammt noch mal, arsch mit ohren.
In article <2tpvps$…@aim.com>, fr…@aim.com (Frank Ip) writes:
|> >
|> >hey, what mistake? For fact I know that the German version is almost identical to the US version.
|> >besides, if you are taking about a MR2 equipped with ABS, leather and basic stuff that the under-$25k SLC offers, you are looking at almost $30k, sure that MR2 has better numbers, but after test driving the two cars, I tend to agree with the opinion of a|> n article by Automobile several issues back comparing the MR2 to the corrado. Corrado IS overall a stronger competitor. IT’s hard to describe in what way the SLC is superior until you drive one, but the overall feeling I experienced is much more firm, sec|> u
|>
|> r
|> >e, and pleasing with the SLC. I could not really tell that the SLC is .7 sec slow in 0-60, nor could I really sense any noticable difference in breaking. However, I do like SLC’s exhaust note (even more of a beast than my 93 RX7 I’ll say), its wide rang|> e of strong torque, and the smoothness of the V6. (I did experience some not-so-smooth transition with the MR2 turbo.)
|> >So I suggest that you don’t just read the numbers and reach the conclusion, go and run wild with one and tell us all about it before it’s too late. (sadly the SLC will be replaced by Golf GTi soon, hopefully the Gti is powered by the V6 as in European V|> ersion.)
|> >
|> >john
|>
|> Hey, go with your feelings. If you think Corrado is better than MR2 or RX-7, go for it. But what I
|> don’t understand is your argument. You think the Corrado is better but you can’t tell why (or just
|> "it feels better"). And don’t believe in numbers?? You couldn’t tell the Corrado is slower, you
|> couldn’t tell the difference between braking, and you think the Corrado has better torque!
|>
|> Never mind. Go with your feelings.
|> And good luck.
|>
|>
|> -Frank
|>
|>
|>
Dear Frank,
just to make you understand better.
1. I said the numbers do not necessarily determine how good a car is.
2. I could not make, performance-wise, a clear distinction between the two cars.
3. the corrado gives me a tighter german feeling.
4. I said that I could not tell the SLC is slower, but I felt that there is a wider range of greater torque, but I did not say that makes the SLC a better car.
5. if you think "it feels better" is not a justification for a good car. then you could go and buy a RX7 over a NSX? or better yet over a 348tb? (note the RX7 is not really far off in terms of numbers you are focusing (aimlessly in my opinion) on?)
john
In article <2tsre7$…@aim.com>, fr…@aim.com (Frank Ip) writes:
…
|> I am not here to VW-bashing. I just don’t think a FWD Corrado with less
|> horse power (178 vs 200), less braking (129ft vs 115ft 60mph-0), less slalom
|> (66mph vs 68), less torque (178@4200 vs 200@3200) can handle better than
|> a mid-engine rear wheel drive MR2. That’s all.
|> I have absolutely no doubt in German engineering. But a VW is not a Porsche.
|> Your argument of saying VW Corrado is better than a Toyota MR2 because it
|> "shares the same heritage and traditions" with a BMW or Porsche", (even
|> though every single performance data published in all major US car
|> magazines are telling the opposite) is just bullshit.
|>
|> You read my posting as flaming people liking Corrado more than the MR2? Wrong.
|> Someone posted an article saying Corrado is better than Eclipse, MR2 and
|> RX-7, and I responsed with a posting with performance data from R&T for both Corrado
|> and MR2.
Gosh, numbers, numbers, sure they are facts, and you think that’s the definition of a better car?
|> These data are not opinion. They are hard facts. And your reaction
|> was to tell people don’t believe in facts and believe what you say because you said so.
who told who not to believe in facts, you? I myself would be appreciated to hear opinions from
people who actually drove the cars, even if the experience causes conflicts with the numbers.
|> It’s not nice when others wish death on you. Since you did that to me, I
|> must also return my courtesy to you. May your VW passat wrap around a pole and
|> turn you into a German wurst. Alright, we are even now.
|>
|> There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. But trying to twist facts to make
|> other people believe in you, IMHO, is wrong.
|>
|> Have a nice day, and drive safely in your VOOOOOOOlkswagen
|>
|> -Frank
|>
|>
|>
john
>Regards, Ryan…..(whose VW is looking for a pole to wrap into a German Wurst.)
> Yup, those German cars are amazing, they convert poles into German
>Wurst…..Verdammt noch mal, arsch mit ohren.
That’s great Ryan’s German engineering. Wrap himself and the passat around
poles and turn into a wurst. But don’t try it, because it’s full of shittt.
>Gosh, numbers, numbers, sure they are facts, and you think that’s the definition of a better car?
Well, I sure appreciate you for being objective the whole time.
In my last posting, I said don’t believe everything
in advertising or consumer report but to use the information they provide to make a judgement.
Like Darin said, "when people make unsubstantiated remarks to …, I believe some proof to the
contrary is warranted."
>who told who not to believe in facts, you? I myself would be appreciated to hear opinions from
>people who actually drove the cars, even if the experience causes conflicts with the numbers.
If you read through the whole "series", you certainly wouldn’t think I ask people don’t believe
in facts. I always posted data from quoted source (performance and price) that people can
verify themselves. I didn’t start getting "personal" until someone started flaming my
posting. Again, like I said before,
>|> There is nothing wrong with having an opinion. But trying to twist facts to make
>|> other people believe in you, IMHO, is wrong.
>john
-frank
Let’s get back to the original topics (if you are still interested) about top 5 car ever.
>>Regards, Ryan…..(whose VW is looking for a pole to wrap into a German Wurst.)
>> Yup, those German cars are amazing, they convert poles into German
>>Wurst…..Verdammt noch mal, arsch mit ohren.
>That’s great Ryan’s German engineering. Wrap himself and the passat around
>poles and turn into a wurst. But don’t try it, because it’s full of shittt.
If that’s the best argument you can come up with, then let this thread
die; it’s becoming pathetic.
Steve
–
Stephen Hui
Computer Engineering
University of Waterloo
> >Regards, Ryan…..(whose VW is looking for a pole to wrap into a
> German Wurst.)
> > Yup, those German cars are amazing, they convert poles into German
> >Wurst…..Verdammt noch mal, arsch mit ohren.
> >
> >
> That’s great Ryan’s German engineering. Wrap himself and the passat
> around
> poles and turn into a wurst. But don’t try it, because it’s full of
> shittt.
>
Why do we give shit heads like this freedom of speech? And Frank, next time
you want to insult me personally, send it to ryan.ra…@dynamite.com . I don’t
think you should be wasting bandwith with the garbage you spew.
Regards,
Ryan.
Ok, this should put the thread about Corrado vs. MR2 Turbo to rest.
Frank, since you love facts, and reading car magazines so much, I urge you to
get your lazy ass to a library and pick up the May 1992 "Car & Driver." They
have a review about the updated Toyota MR-2 Turbo, and my "twisted facts"
happened to be dead-on. In case your a real lazy ass, let me quote you the
highlights:
The article is by Brock Yates, one of Car&Driver’s finest.
The subtitle reads :" Toyota’s magicians work some hocus-pocus on their famed
rabbit’s LOOSE hindquaters."
-"…on this day, the missison was twofold: first for Toyota to demonstrate
that the MR@’s wonky oversteering rear-suspension geometry had been corrected."
-"It was obvious after but a few miles that Toyota had solved the problem that
prompted the gathering. This was a great relief to the factory reps, because
the slickly shaped second-generation MR2 introduced as a 19900 model could be a
handful when pushed to the limit – especially on racetracks and especially in
the upscale turbocharged version. Under fullboost hard cornering, with the
rear suspension at full compression, the back wheels toed-out, causing radical,
often terminal oversteer."
-"Toyota drivers competing in IMSA’s Firestone Firehawk series…after a few
quick laps with white knuckles and ashen lips, "The cars were insane,"…"In
the middle of a corner they’d want to swap ends, and even really talented guys
like P.J. Jones had trouble catching them. Worse yet, the shift linkage was
notchy and the brakes were below par."
-"These alterations not only cured the toe-change during cornering, but they
also decreased the lift and squat under hard braking and accleleration that
handicapped the earlier models."
-"The latest MR2 will ride on Yokohama A022" (What did I say about nice tires?)
-"On paper, the MR2 turbo appears to be a fast driver’s dream: a close-coupled
two-seater with a high-revving, midmounted, twin-cam, turbocharged
four-banger…that would send the average Porschephile into paroxysms of joy if
this little beauty had been created in Zuffenhausen. . . . But somehow a
critical ingredient has been lost in the recipe. Call it brio, call it
zaniness, call it cojones. Call it soul. For all its mechanical
sophistication, the MR2 remains mysteriously tepid…. Try as we might, our
enthusiasm lags. Is it the strange, almost subliminal impression that the MR2
Turbo, for all its technical excellence, is less than the sum of all its parts?
This car demands to be liked. We want to love it, but outright lust escapes
us."
Gee, I guess you lose. Now who feels stupid about making a dumb mistake?
Toasty Regards,
Ryan.
In article <9406202133.A337…@dynamite.com> ryan.ra…@dynamite.com writes:
>Ok, this should put the thread about Corrado vs. MR2 Turbo to rest.
>Gee, I guess you lose. Now who feels stupid about making a dumb mistake?
>Ryan.
I included the Corrado in my Top Five Cars Ever list and I don’t care what
you say about the MR2 Turbo I will still buy the Corrado when I have the money.
There are *so* many MR2′s around it’s hardly something special is it? Why have
cotton when you can have silk?
Yours,
Will.
–
This is my signature, hahahahaha
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Ok, this should put the thread about Corrado vs. MR2 Turbo to rest.
>Frank, since you love facts, and reading car magazines so much, I urge you to
>get your lazy ass to a library and pick up the May 1992 "Car & Driver." They
>have a review about the updated Toyota MR-2 Turbo, and my "twisted facts"
>happened to be dead-on. In case your a real lazy ass, let me quote you the
>highlights:
>The article is by Brock Yates, one of Car&Driver’s finest.
>The subtitle reads :" Toyota’s magicians work some hocus-pocus on their famed
>rabbit’s LOOSE hindquaters."
>-"…on this day, the missison was twofold: first for Toyota to demonstrate
>that the MR@’s wonky oversteering rear-suspension geometry had been corrected."
>-"It was obvious after but a few miles that Toyota had solved the problem that
>prompted the gathering. This was a great relief to the factory reps, because
>the slickly shaped second-generation MR2 introduced as a 19900 model could be a
>handful when pushed to the limit – especially on racetracks and especially in
>the upscale turbocharged version. Under fullboost hard cornering, with the
>rear suspension at full compression, the back wheels toed-out, causing radical,
>often terminal oversteer."
>-"Toyota drivers competing in IMSA’s Firestone Firehawk series…after a few
>quick laps with white knuckles and ashen lips, "The cars were insane,"…"In
>the middle of a corner they’d want to swap ends, and even really talented guys
>like P.J. Jones had trouble catching them. Worse yet, the shift linkage was
>notchy and the brakes were below par."
>-"These alterations not only cured the toe-change during cornering, but they
>also decreased the lift and squat under hard braking and accleleration that
>handicapped the earlier models."
>-"The latest MR2 will ride on Yokohama A022" (What did I say about nice tires?)
>-"On paper, the MR2 turbo appears to be a fast driver’s dream: a close-coupled
>two-seater with a high-revving, midmounted, twin-cam, turbocharged
>four-banger…that would send the average Porschephile into paroxysms of joy if
>this little beauty had been created in Zuffenhausen. . . . But somehow a
>critical ingredient has been lost in the recipe. Call it brio, call it
>zaniness, call it cojones. Call it soul. For all its mechanical
>sophistication, the MR2 remains mysteriously tepid…. Try as we might, our
>enthusiasm lags. Is it the strange, almost subliminal impression that the MR2
>Turbo, for all its technical excellence, is less than the sum of all its parts?
> This car demands to be liked. We want to love it, but outright lust escapes
>us."
>Gee, I guess you lose. Now who feels stupid about making a dumb mistake?
>Toasty Regards,
>Ryan.
First of all, I would like to apologise to all the netters because I
). I wonder what
waste the bandwidth in fighting personal attacKs rather than expressing
opinions. Let’s call it a quit, like I said in the last posting. I
also urge all those people who are following the topic to read the
whole series instead of just "jumping in". This is not a ground for
flame war (but sometime you just need to "retaliate"
happen to Darin… I guess he’s smarter than me and just stop to do
this senseless argument.
Ryan, for the entire artcle, it has never mentioned anything, not a SINGLE
comment about how the MR2 compares to the Corrado. Either you didn’t quote
the right part of the article or you used a wrong quote to substantiate your
point.
Maybe MR2 is not the best car ever built
at $20-25000 range; maybe the editor doesn’t like the car; maybe there
are design problems. But I just cannot agree when people claim that
Corrado outhandles the MR2 (while all performance numbers points to
the MR2).
Throughout the series, I have never tried to skew the argument or shift
the focus on the original claim/argument "Corrado outhandles MR2". I didn’t
start the personal attact (or death wish), although I am guilty of participating in
retaliation. I didn’t quote any personal "opinion" but data from magazine or
consumer report; I always stated the source of my information and everyone
can verify them easily; I quoted M&T May 1994 data instead of an article in
the 1992 C&D (sorry Ryan, I tried to look it up at the local library but it
only keep the periodical up to last year).
Ryan, you can do whatever Toyota-bashing, personal attacks, quoting or misquoting
, someone from dynamite??). You just can’t change
of reasons to support your opinion, (or had your friend sent me flaming email of
entirely personal attacks
the fact that MR2 has better measures in performance handling (HP, Torque, Slalom,
braking).
Again, I apologise to all the by-standers if I happened to offend anyone of you.
-Frank
In article <DC.94Jun12200…@panix.panix.com> d…@panix.com (David W. Crawford) writes:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Jun 1994 20:06:51 GMT, Diogenes said:
[snip discussion about how evil camera radar is]
> Diogenes> Camera guns are outlawed in the USA for a whole lotta reasons,
> Diogenes> but are pretty common elsewhere. They generally use RADAR, and
> Diogenes> are quite innacurate and can be defeated by the usual methods re
> Diogenes> RADAR, but easier. Example: a farm combine was clocked at about
> Diogenes> 120+ MPH b/c of the whirling blades. (the combine had a flat
> Diogenes> out top speed of ~20 MPH).
[snip some more]
>Radar cameras are not outlawed for all of USA.
>As a result of a campaign by National Motorists Association and
>its members, it was outlawed in the state of New Jersey.
>Camera-radar is in use in a few locations in the USA, e.g.
>Paradise Valley, AZ (near Phoenix).
It’s also been used in southern California (National City used one for a
while). My understanding is that they were being "tested" and that no
large-scale rollout has been planned as of yet. . .
–
Christopher D. Heer — ch…@isisph.com — Not just cheer. . . all TempaCheer!
Isis Pharmaceuticals: where a drug | My opinions are mine, not Isis’.
can be a drug! | Unless they license them, of course.
In article <DC.94Jun12200…@panix.panix.com> crawf…@Arizona.EDU writes:
$>>>>> On Thu, 9 Jun 1994 20:06:51 GMT, Diogenes said:
$ Diogenes> The premier LaserGun company is currently working on a laser
$ Diogenes> camera gun which will soon be available in places other than the
$ Diogenes> US and by all accounts it is all but impossible to defeat on
$ Diogenes> technical grounds.
At least if the cops here in Ontario start using a photo lidar gun,
there’s one less option open to them. Currently, they’re delaying the
start of photo radar, but when it’s operational they plan on not only
using stationary vans at the roadside, but also vans moving at the speed
limit with the camera aimed to cover the lane to the van’s left. Go
by at more than a certain speed above what the van’s doing and *click*
—
______________________________________________
/ Hi Ho Silver, who likes the idea of having \ __________________________
\ SNTF and large h00ters in the same package \/ sil…@bokonon.UUCP \
\______________________________________________/ …{!uunet}!bokonon!silver \
>>Camera-radar is in use in a few locations in the USA, e.g.
>>Paradise Valley, AZ (near Phoenix).
>It’s also been used in southern California (National City used one for a
>while). My understanding is that they were being "tested" and that no
>large-scale rollout has been planned as of yet. . .
>–
>Christopher D. Heer — ch…@isisph.com — Not just cheer. . . all TempaCheer!
> Isis Pharmaceuticals: where a drug | My opinions are mine, not Isis’.
> can be a drug! | Unless they license them, of course.
I stand corrected.
After some further research, it turns out that there are camera guns in
use in southern CA, NM, and AZ. Still, there appears to be no plans for
the marketing of a laser speed gun in the USA. Also, just how good
for you can it be to have fields of microwave radiation continuously
blasting across highways?
——->Diogenes.