Driving automobiles

Plans for a privatised toll-road foiled in Yamhill County, OR, USA

Hi All,

According to the Salem Statesman-Journal ( http://tinyurl.com/3d5eob ),
plans were previously made to construct a toll-road around Oregon State
Route 99W.  This toll-road would have helped offset State Route traffic
by providing an alternative path between Newberg and Dundee, in an area
affectionately referred to as wine country.

The 27-kilometre bypass was being considered by an Australian firm
well-known for public-private ventures.  For now, the plans are
indefinitely on hold.

The Worldwide Highway Library, a Calrog.com component, hosts a
photograph of Newberg via State Route 240.  For more information, the
city and highway can be found here:
http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/or-240.html .

Cheers,

Carl Rogers
"Adding human experience to highway enthusiasm"
********
Calrog.com, http://www.calrog.com :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
An integrated media arm in Turn-of-the-Century PC Development,
International Transportation Research, and Interpersonal Psychology. Has
served your home country and ninety-seven of its worldwide neighbours
since 2000, through Internet downstream and published works.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MySpace:  http://www.myspace.com/calrog
********

.
posted by admin in Uncategorized and have Comments (23)

23 Responses to “Plans for a privatised toll-road foiled in Yamhill County, OR, USA”

  1. admin says:

    On Jul 28, 12:24 am, Carl Rogers <postmas…@calrog.com> wrote:
    > Hi All,

    > According to the Salem Statesman-Journal (http://tinyurl.com/3d5eob),
    > plans were previously made to construct a toll-road around Oregon State
    > Route 99W.  This toll-road would have helped offset State Route traffic
    > by providing an alternative path between Newberg and Dundee, in an area
    > affectionately referred to as wine country.

    > The 27-kilometre bypass was being considered by an Australian firm
    > well-known for public-private ventures.  For now, the plans are
    > indefinitely on hold.

    $500m is not a hell of a lot for an 11-mile highway… and even if
    tolls won’t pay for the whole thing, so what?  Can’t highway
    departments build roads anymore supported by taxes?  I’m sure they can
    find a way to cover the rest of the shortfall, say by paying back the
    public-private venture company $1M or $2M per year for X years to make
    up the difference?

  2. admin says:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    Steve A. wrote:
    > On Jul 28, 12:24 am, Carl Rogers <postmas…@calrog.com> wrote:
    >> Hi All,

    >> According to the Salem Statesman-Journal (http://tinyurl.com/3d5eob),
    >> plans were previously made to construct a toll-road around Oregon State
    >> Route 99W.  This toll-road would have helped offset State Route traffic
    >> by providing an alternative path between Newberg and Dundee, in an area
    >> affectionately referred to as wine country.

    >> The 27-kilometre bypass was being considered by an Australian firm
    >> well-known for public-private ventures.  For now, the plans are
    >> indefinitely on hold.

    > $500m is not a hell of a lot for an 11-mile highway… and even if
    > tolls won’t pay for the whole thing, so what?  Can’t highway
    > departments build roads anymore supported by taxes?  

    No.

    They’re too busy siphoning away the money, the way they do all the
    considerable money that comes out of people’s pockets for schools,
    social programs and other things.  It’s hard to do anything for the
    people when you live in a thoroughly-corrupted "democracy."

    John

    Von Herzen, moge es wieder zu Herzen gehen.  –Beethoven

  3. admin says:

    In article <CbKqi.12779$Od7.9…@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    The Man Behind The Curtain  <no…@earthlink.net> wrote:

    >They’re too busy siphoning away the money, the way they do all the
    >considerable money that comes out of people’s pockets for schools,
    >social programs and other things.  It’s hard to do anything for the
    >people when you live in a thoroughly-corrupted "democracy."

    Pennsylvania, which has a constitutional provision preventing state
    gas taxes for being used for other than roads, just passed a provision
    which will

    1) Use gas tax money (state and federal) to…
    2) Impose a toll on I-80
    the fund from which will be used to
    3) finance SEPTA — mass transit in the Philadelphia area.

    The icing on the cake?  I-80 isn’t in the Philadelphia area.

      There’s no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
      result in a fully-depreciated one.

  4. admin says:

    On Jul 28, 12:24 am, Carl Rogers <postmas…@calrog.com> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > Hi All,

    > According to the Salem Statesman-Journal (http://tinyurl.com/3d5eob),
    > plans were previously made to construct a toll-road around Oregon State
    > Route 99W.  This toll-road would have helped offset State Route traffic
    > by providing an alternative path between Newberg and Dundee, in an area
    > affectionately referred to as wine country.

    > The 27-kilometre bypass was being considered by an Australian firm
    > well-known for public-private ventures.  For now, the plans are
    > indefinitely on hold.

    > The Worldwide Highway Library, a Calrog.com component, hosts a
    > photograph of Newberg via State Route 240.  For more information, the
    > city and highway can be found here:http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/or-240.html.

    > Cheers,

    > Carl Rogers
    > "Adding human experience to highway enthusiasm"
    > ********
    > Calrog.com,http://www.calrog.com:
    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > An integrated media arm in Turn-of-the-Century PC Development,
    > International Transportation Research, and Interpersonal Psychology. Has
    > served your home country and ninety-seven of its worldwide neighbours
    > since 2000, through Internet downstream and published works.
    > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > MySpace:  http://www.myspace.com/calrog
    > ********

    I’ve gotta say that this business of "privatizing" roads is scary.  We
    already pay enough in taxes and these guys just want more and more and
    more.  It’s getting very old, very quick.

    For the roads that do have tolls, now they would like for us to
    purchase EZ Pass units (at least here on the East coast) just so we
    can get our pockets picked a bit faster.

    I hope more of these plans are scuttled.

    Charles R. Whealton
    Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com

  5. admin says:

    On Jul 28, 7:58 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > In article <CbKqi.12779$Od7.9…@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net>,
    > The Man Behind The Curtain  <no…@earthlink.net> wrote:

    > >They’re too busy siphoning away the money, the way they do all the
    > >considerable money that comes out of people’s pockets for schools,
    > >social programs and other things.  It’s hard to do anything for the
    > >people when you live in a thoroughly-corrupted "democracy."

    > Pennsylvania, which has a constitutional provision preventing state
    > gas taxes for being used for other than roads, just passed a provision
    > which will

    > 1) Use gas tax money (state and federal) to…
    > 2) Impose a toll on I-80
    > the fund from which will be used to
    > 3) finance SEPTA — mass transit in the Philadelphia area.

    > The icing on the cake?  I-80 isn’t in the Philadelphia area.

    I don’t see how the money isn’t being used on roads, even the way you
    describe it.  Public transportation reduces wear and tear on roads and
    decreases congestion which ultimately raises average traffic speeds
    and reduces maintenance budgets.  It’s a universal win situation.

  6. admin says:

    On Jul 29, 9:28 am, Chuck Whealton <chuck_wheal…@yahoo.com> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > On Jul 28, 12:24 am, Carl Rogers <postmas…@calrog.com> wrote:

    > > Hi All,

    > > According to the Salem Statesman-Journal (http://tinyurl.com/3d5eob),
    > > plans were previously made to construct a toll-road around Oregon State
    > > Route 99W.  This toll-road would have helped offset State Route traffic
    > > by providing an alternative path between Newberg and Dundee, in an area
    > > affectionately referred to as wine country.

    > > The 27-kilometre bypass was being considered by an Australian firm
    > > well-known for public-private ventures.  For now, the plans are
    > > indefinitely on hold.

    > > The Worldwide Highway Library, a Calrog.com component, hosts a
    > > photograph of Newberg via State Route 240.  For more information, the
    > > city and highway can be found here:http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/or-240.html.

    > > Cheers,

    > > Carl Rogers
    > > "Adding human experience to highway enthusiasm"
    > > ********
    > > Calrog.com,http://www.calrog.com:
    > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > > An integrated media arm in Turn-of-the-Century PC Development,
    > > International Transportation Research, and Interpersonal Psychology. Has
    > > served your home country and ninety-seven of its worldwide neighbours
    > > since 2000, through Internet downstream and published works.
    > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > > MySpace:  http://www.myspace.com/calrog
    > > ********

    > I’ve gotta say that this business of "privatizing" roads is scary.  We
    > already pay enough in taxes and these guys just want more and more and
    > more.  It’s getting very old, very quick.

    Well, back east you all have the Northeast Corridor, which rips the
    pants off driving anyway.  Between the better option available and the
    toll roads, I don’t see why anybody along the I-95 corridor bothers
    driving.  That, and there’s a difference between adding a toll to an
    overburdened highway to cover additional wear and tear and encourage
    drivers to find another method, as is done in Washington as well as in
    Oregon on some Columbia River bridges and throughout the midwest and
    east coast, and the OR-99W proposal, which would have sold the highway
    to a private company.

    Public toll roads are sometimes a necessary part of effective traffic
    management, but privatization of public interests is never a good
    thing.

  7. admin says:

    In article <1185734472.650930.128…@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    >On Jul 28, 7:58 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    >wrote:

    >> Pennsylvania, which has a constitutional provision preventing state
    >> gas taxes for being used for other than roads, just passed a provision
    >> which will

    >> 1) Use gas tax money (state and federal) to…
    >> 2) Impose a toll on I-80
    >> the fund from which will be used to
    >> 3) finance SEPTA — mass transit in the Philadelphia area.

    >> The icing on the cake?  I-80 isn’t in the Philadelphia area.

    >I don’t see how the money isn’t being used on roads, even the way you
    >describe it.  Public transportation reduces wear and tear on roads and
    >decreases congestion which ultimately raises average traffic speeds
    >and reduces maintenance budgets.  It’s a universal win situation.

    Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    traffic on I-80.

      There’s no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
      result in a fully-depreciated one.

  8. admin says:

    On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:27:19 -0500, in misc.transport.road
    russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote in
    <9K6dnVjDmczqozDbnZ2dnUVZ_t-gn…@speakeasy.net>:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    >In article <1185734472.650930.128…@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    >Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:
    >>On Jul 28, 7:58 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    >>wrote:

    >>> Pennsylvania, which has a constitutional provision preventing state
    >>> gas taxes for being used for other than roads, just passed a provision
    >>> which will

    >>> 1) Use gas tax money (state and federal) to…
    >>> 2) Impose a toll on I-80
    >>> the fund from which will be used to
    >>> 3) finance SEPTA — mass transit in the Philadelphia area.

    >>> The icing on the cake?  I-80 isn’t in the Philadelphia area.

    >>I don’t see how the money isn’t being used on roads, even the way you
    >>describe it.  Public transportation reduces wear and tear on roads and
    >>decreases congestion which ultimately raises average traffic speeds
    >>and reduces maintenance budgets.  It’s a universal win situation.

    >Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    >tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    >traffic on I-80.

    That’s not the point. The point is to find funding for SEPTA, not to
    help I-80.

  9. admin says:

    In article <uufqa356hcg3c8unvpj86v5hniu10mh…@4ax.com>,
    Free Lunch  <lu…@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    >On Sun, 29 Jul 2007 20:27:19 -0500, in misc.transport.road
    >russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) wrote in
    ><9K6dnVjDmczqozDbnZ2dnUVZ_t-gn…@speakeasy.net>:
    >>In article <1185734472.650930.128…@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    >>Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:
    >>>On Jul 28, 7:58 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    >>>wrote:

    >>>> Pennsylvania, which has a constitutional provision preventing state
    >>>> gas taxes for being used for other than roads, just passed a provision
    >>>> which will

    >>>> 1) Use gas tax money (state and federal) to…
    >>>> 2) Impose a toll on I-80
    >>>> the fund from which will be used to
    >>>> 3) finance SEPTA — mass transit in the Philadelphia area.

    >>>> The icing on the cake?  I-80 isn’t in the Philadelphia area.

    >>>I don’t see how the money isn’t being used on roads, even the way you
    >>>describe it.  Public transportation reduces wear and tear on roads and
    >>>decreases congestion which ultimately raises average traffic speeds
    >>>and reduces maintenance budgets.  It’s a universal win situation.

    >>Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    >>tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    >>traffic on I-80.

    >That’s not the point. The point is to find funding for SEPTA, not to
    >help I-80.

    Which doesn’t prevent disingenuous mass transit supporters from
    claiming it helps roads.

      There’s no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
      result in a fully-depreciated one.

  10. admin says:

    On Jul 29, 6:27 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > In article <1185734472.650930.128…@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    > Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:

    > >On Jul 28, 7:58 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    > >wrote:

    > >> Pennsylvania, which has a constitutional provision preventing state
    > >> gas taxes for being used for other than roads, just passed a provision
    > >> which will

    > >> 1) Use gas tax money (state and federal) to…
    > >> 2) Impose a toll on I-80
    > >> the fund from which will be used to
    > >> 3) finance SEPTA — mass transit in the Philadelphia area.

    > >> The icing on the cake?  I-80 isn’t in the Philadelphia area.

    > >I don’t see how the money isn’t being used on roads, even the way you
    > >describe it.  Public transportation reduces wear and tear on roads and
    > >decreases congestion which ultimately raises average traffic speeds
    > >and reduces maintenance budgets.  It’s a universal win situation.

    > Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    > tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    > traffic on I-80.

    It’s still fewer vehicles inside Pennsylvania tearing up the roads,
    which is what PDOT appears to be concerned with by creating such an
    arrangement in the first place.  Less wear in Philly means more money
    in the long term available to keep I-80 up.

  11. admin says:

    On Jul 29, 6:33 pm, Free Lunch <lu…@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

    > >Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    > >tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    > >traffic on I-80.

    > That’s not the point. The point is to find funding for SEPTA, not to
    > help I-80.

    I don’t see how there’s a difference:  Helping SEPTA will help road
    projects in the long term.  If they don’t have to pay to repave Philly
    as often, I-80 gets more help.

  12. admin says:

    On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:03:58 -0000, in misc.transport.road
    Paul Johnson <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote in
    <1185761038.224197.132…@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:

    >On Jul 29, 6:33 pm, Free Lunch <lu…@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
    >> >Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    >> >tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    >> >traffic on I-80.

    >> That’s not the point. The point is to find funding for SEPTA, not to
    >> help I-80.

    >I don’t see how there’s a difference:  Helping SEPTA will help road
    >projects in the long term.  If they don’t have to pay to repave Philly
    >as often, I-80 gets more help.

    Have you driven on Philly’s roads?

  13. admin says:

    On Jul 29, 7:15 pm, Free Lunch <lu…@nofreelunch.us> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > On Mon, 30 Jul 2007 02:03:58 -0000, in misc.transport.road
    > Paul Johnson <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote in
    > <1185761038.224197.132…@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com>:

    > >On Jul 29, 6:33 pm, Free Lunch <lu…@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
    > >> >Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    > >> >tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    > >> >traffic on I-80.

    > >> That’s not the point. The point is to find funding for SEPTA, not to
    > >> help I-80.

    > >I don’t see how there’s a difference:  Helping SEPTA will help road
    > >projects in the long term.  If they don’t have to pay to repave Philly
    > >as often, I-80 gets more help.

    > Have you driven on Philly’s roads?

    No, but I understand the concept.  They’re taking a page from the way
    we manage transportation out here in Cascadia.  Such arrangements are
    old hat in Oregon, Washington and BC.  BC pulls it off best, my
    hypothesis being Canadians in general are a little more willing to
    follow through with reading into about where their taxes are going and
    vote for the public interest, resulting in more available funds to
    pull it off and more public eyes keeping the public servants honest.
    But that isn’t to say that Oregon and Washington highways arnen’t
    maintained well as it is, such arrangements allow funding to move
    people off the road onto other forms of public transport such as
    Amtrak, regional transit systems like Sound Transit, TriMet, etc.
    Even most small towns have rapid transit here.  If you’re willing to
    throw way more time at a trip than is reasonable, it’s actually
    possible to travel about 200 miles along I-5 on local city busses,
    transferring from one system to the next.

    And yeah, we may bitch about traffic, but we bitch more about having
    to build more roads that aren’t necessary.  If Oregon built all the
    freeways it wanted to and didn’t have the public revolt towards
    allowing people to make the choice of appropriate transport for the
    trip, we’d have three times the freeways we do now.

    http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=6110
    (be sure to click on the map… red freeways exist today, green ones
    save for McGloughlin, which is now an expressway, were never built.)

    As a native of a state that’s been doing this since the 1960s, and a
    five-year guest in one that thinks roads are the only answer
    (California), I can tell you which system works, and it’s not
    California’s.

  14. admin says:

    On Jul 29, 2:46 pm, Paul Johnson <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > On Jul 29, 9:28 am, Chuck Whealton <chuck_wheal…@yahoo.com> wrote:

    > > On Jul 28, 12:24 am, Carl Rogers <postmas…@calrog.com> wrote:

    > > > Hi All,

    > > > According to the Salem Statesman-Journal (http://tinyurl.com/3d5eob),
    > > > plans were previously made to construct a toll-road around Oregon State
    > > > Route 99W.  This toll-road would have helped offset State Route traffic
    > > > by providing an alternative path between Newberg and Dundee, in an area
    > > > affectionately referred to as wine country.

    > > > The 27-kilometre bypass was being considered by an Australian firm
    > > > well-known for public-private ventures.  For now, the plans are
    > > > indefinitely on hold.

    > > > The Worldwide Highway Library, a Calrog.com component, hosts a
    > > > photograph of Newberg via State Route 240.  For more information, the
    > > > city and highway can be found here:http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/or-240.html.

    > > > Cheers,

    > > > Carl Rogers
    > > > "Adding human experience to highway enthusiasm"
    > > > ********
    > > > Calrog.com,http://www.calrog.com:
    > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > > > An integrated media arm in Turn-of-the-Century PC Development,
    > > > International Transportation Research, and Interpersonal Psychology. Has
    > > > served your home country and ninety-seven of its worldwide neighbours
    > > > since 2000, through Internet downstream and published works.
    > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > > > MySpace:  http://www.myspace.com/calrog
    > > > ********

    > > I’ve gotta say that this business of "privatizing" roads is scary.  We
    > > already pay enough in taxes and these guys just want more and more and
    > > more.  It’s getting very old, very quick.

    > Well, back east you all have the Northeast Corridor, which rips the
    > pants off driving anyway.  Between the better option available and the
    > toll roads, I don’t see why anybody along the I-95 corridor bothers
    > driving.  That, and there’s a difference between adding a toll to an
    > overburdened highway to cover additional wear and tear and encourage
    > drivers to find another method, as is done in Washington as well as in
    > Oregon on some Columbia River bridges and throughout the midwest and
    > east coast, and the OR-99W proposal, which would have sold the highway
    > to a private company.

    > Public toll roads are sometimes a necessary part of effective traffic
    > management, but privatization of public interests is never a good
    > thing.- Hide quoted text –

    > – Show quoted text –

    Some of this boils down to whether folks believe that their current
    gas taxes are adequate to pay for BOTH maintenance AND new
    construction.

    My impression is that more and more that the fuel tax only generates
    enough money to pay for maintenance.

    If that is mostly true – then the question becomes what is the
    preferred way to pay for new roads.

    A Poll taken last year by AAA showed about 50% preferred tolls, 22%
    preferred an increase in the fuel tax and … an even smaller number
    preferred sales taxes and other fees.

  15. admin says:

    russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:

    >>Why can’t politicians put that kind of creativity to the service of
    >>Good rather than Evil?
    >Evil pays better.

    And the parties are more fun.


          Cameron Kaiser * ckai…@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
                     personal page: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
      ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for C64/128! **
                      ** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **

  16. admin says:

    On Jul 29, 12:28 pm, Chuck Whealton <chuck_wheal…@yahoo.com> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > On Jul 28, 12:24 am, Carl Rogers <postmas…@calrog.com> wrote:

    > > Hi All,

    > > According to the Salem Statesman-Journal (http://tinyurl.com/3d5eob),
    > > plans were previously made to construct a toll-road around Oregon State
    > > Route 99W.  This toll-road would have helped offset State Route traffic
    > > by providing an alternative path between Newberg and Dundee, in an area
    > > affectionately referred to as wine country.

    > > The 27-kilometre bypass was being considered by an Australian firm
    > > well-known for public-private ventures.  For now, the plans are
    > > indefinitely on hold.

    > > The Worldwide Highway Library, a Calrog.com component, hosts a
    > > photograph of Newberg via State Route 240.  For more information, the
    > > city and highway can be found here:http://worldwide-hwys.calrog.com/or-240.html.

    > > Cheers,

    > > Carl Rogers
    > > "Adding human experience to highway enthusiasm"
    > > ********
    > > Calrog.com,http://www.calrog.com:
    > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > > An integrated media arm in Turn-of-the-Century PC Development,
    > > International Transportation Research, and Interpersonal Psychology. Has
    > > served your home country and ninety-seven of its worldwide neighbours
    > > since 2000, through Internet downstream and published works.
    > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    > > MySpace:  http://www.myspace.com/calrog
    > > ********

    > I’ve gotta say that this business of "privatizing" roads is scary.  We
    > already pay enough in taxes and these guys just want more and more and
    > more.  It’s getting very old, very quick.

    > For the roads that do have tolls, now they would like for us to
    > purchase EZ Pass units (at least here on the East coast) just so we
    > can get our pockets picked a bit faster.

    > I hope more of these plans are scuttled.

    > Charles R. Whealton
    > Charles Whealton @ pleasedontspam.com

    Then I hope you have a plan to fund the going-bankrupt (2009) Highway
    Account of the Highway Trust Fund. Raising gas taxes, especially now,
    would be political suicide. Raising tolls or installing them on more
    highways, not so much.

    There is no such thing as a free lunch. Pay your fair share of ever-
    rising maintenance expenses.

  17. admin says:

    On Jul 30, 3:42 am, Larry Gross <gross.la…@gmail.com> wrote:

    > If that is mostly true – then the question becomes what is the
    > preferred way to pay for new roads.

    Based on what we’re seeing in Oregon, I’m not sure new roads work.
    Seems traffic just expands to fill all available llanes, if you build
    along those new roads, the congestion doesn’t go away, it gets worse
    systemwide.  Best to maintain alternatives to individual driving as
    well.

  18. admin says:

    On Jul 30, 8:26 am, "Sherman L. Cahal" <shermanca…@gmail.com> wrote:

    > Then I hope you have a plan to fund the going-bankrupt (2009) Highway
    > Account of the Highway Trust Fund. Raising gas taxes, especially now,
    > would be political suicide. Raising tolls or installing them on more
    > highways, not so much.

    Maybe not.  I’d kill people if I had to stop at toll plazas for more
    than Willamette River Ferries and Columbia River bridges on a regular
    basis…those toll plazas slow me down enough to have to plan around
    the delay driving professionally.  Fuel taxes I just pay at the end of
    the month when the Pacific Pride bill comes.

  19. admin says:

    In article <1185760979.732864.134…@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:

    >On Jul 29, 6:27 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    >wrote:

    >> Get a map.  Even using the ridiculous tortured logic you use above,
    >> tell me how use of mass transit in Philadelphia is going to reduce
    >> traffic on I-80.

    >It’s still fewer vehicles inside Pennsylvania tearing up the roads,
    >which is what PDOT appears to be concerned with by creating such an
    >arrangement in the first place.  Less wear in Philly means more money
    >in the long term available to keep I-80 up.

    ROTFL.  Mass transit supporters will come up with any excuse to
    justify pilfering money from drivers to pay for transit.

    PennDOT wasn’t involved, this is a creation of the legislature and the
    governor.  

      There’s no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
      result in a fully-depreciated one.

  20. admin says:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    Cameron Kaiser wrote:
    > russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:

    >>>Why can’t politicians put that kind of creativity to the service of
    >>>Good rather than Evil?

    >>Evil pays better.

    > And the parties are more fun.

    > —
    >       Cameron Kaiser * ckai…@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
    >                  personal page: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
    >   ** Computer Workshops: games, productivity software and more for
    >   C64/128! **
    >                   ** http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/ **

    Hay, I’m not the EVILLEST ROADGEEK EVAR for my health, you know.


    Comrade Otto Yamamoto
    http://mryamamoto.50megs.com
    decreasing the signal,
    increasing the NOISE!

  21. admin says:

    On Jul 30, 9:38 am, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    wrote:

    > In article <1185760979.732864.134…@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    > Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:

    > >It’s still fewer vehicles inside Pennsylvania tearing up the roads,
    > >which is what PDOT appears to be concerned with by creating such an
    > >arrangement in the first place.  Less wear in Philly means more money
    > >in the long term available to keep I-80 up.

    > ROTFL.  Mass transit supporters will come up with any excuse to
    > justify pilfering money from drivers to pay for transit.

    I’m not intrinsically a transit supporter.  I’m a professional trucker
    and I have to drive in cities that have effective transit and those
    that don’t.  I get paid by weight-distance, so if I get stuck in
    traffic, it doesn’t matter how much I’m hauling, I’m not making
    money.  When I cross a city, I make more money in cities where people
    have effective alternatives than those that don’t.  Trying to argue
    that public transportation doesn’t have a valuable place in the grand
    transportation scheme of things simply ignores reality.
    Unfortunately, outside Cascadia, city planners seem to prefer to
    ignore reality.

    > PennDOT wasn’t involved, this is a creation of the legislature and the
    > governor.

    As all spending and revenue procedures are.  At some point, PennDOT
    had to be involved to bring attention to the need.  You’re welcome to
    search your state’s website, this kind of thing is subject to sunshine
    laws.

  22. admin says:

    In article <1185837621.103474.25…@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    >On Jul 30, 9:38 am, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    >wrote:
    >> In article <1185760979.732864.134…@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
    >> Paul Johnson  <ba…@ursine.ca> wrote:

    >> >It’s still fewer vehicles inside Pennsylvania tearing up the roads,
    >> >which is what PDOT appears to be concerned with by creating such an
    >> >arrangement in the first place.  Less wear in Philly means more money
    >> >in the long term available to keep I-80 up.

    >> ROTFL.  Mass transit supporters will come up with any excuse to
    >> justify pilfering money from drivers to pay for transit.

    >I’m not intrinsically a transit supporter.  I’m a professional trucker
    >and I have to drive in cities that have effective transit and those
    >that don’t.

    Which means your vehicle is tearing up the road a hell of a lot more
    than any commuter’s car.  Of course, the same could be said of SEPTA buses.

    >> PennDOT wasn’t involved, this is a creation of the legislature and the
    >> governor.

    >As all spending and revenue procedures are.  At some point, PennDOT
    >had to be involved to bring attention to the need.  You’re welcome to
    >search your state’s website, this kind of thing is subject to sunshine
    >laws.

    This was all out in the open, but again, PennDOT wasn’t involved.  The
    governor and the Philadelphia legislators wanted money from the state
    for SEPTA, and they were willing to hold up the budget to get it.
    They did, and this plan to toll I-80 (again, nowhere near
    Philadelphia) and divert the money to SEPTA is what was agreed upon.

      There’s no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
      result in a fully-depreciated one.

  23. admin says:

    On Jul 30, 6:00 pm, russo…@grace.speakeasy.net (Matthew T. Russotto)
    wrote:

    > This was all out in the open, but again, PennDOT wasn’t involved.  The
    > governor and the Philadelphia legislators wanted money from the state
    > for SEPTA, and they were willing to hold up the budget to get it.
    > They did, and this plan to toll I-80 (again, nowhere near
    > Philadelphia) and divert the money to SEPTA is what was agreed upon.

    Which brings up the question, why the outrage after the fact?
    Obviously, you appear to follow local government in your area, but did
    you show up to any of the sessions?  If not, why not?  These people
    work for you.  If the Pennsylvania public can’t control them, you,
    personally, have a problem that you need to go to your state capitol
    and start sorting things out.  Losing control of the government is one
    of those things you should probably take work off for to remedy: Your
    freedom may ultimately be at stake.