Driving automobiles

Fighting a supposedly speeding ticket.

I need help, or more likely, other peoples input besides my own.

Saturday morning at approx. 10:00 AM 2-6-93, I was driving on I-70
heading East.  I was basically leaving Columbus to go see my parents in
Steubenville.  Not two miles from the I-71 and I-70 intersection, I saw
about 5 police cruisers on the side of the road.  I checked my speed
limit, and it was variable between 55 – 60, which is the speed limit.

About a minute after I passed the cruisers, I was pulled over by a
cruiser with two police officers in it.  The officer on the passenger
side got out and came and asked me for my badge because I have a
Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) sticker on my truck.  I said that I was
not a police officer, but my sister is and she gave it to me.  He then
threatened to take me into jail because I was not an officer and that it
was illegal for me to have the sticker.

After the threat, he told me I was going 74.2 in a 55 zone.  He went
back to the cruiser and checked my license and registration and came
back and gave me the ticket.  I asked him to see the radar that had my
supposed speed and he said that they did not use radar.  He also
threatened to take me into jail because I had a Radar detecter — they
are not illegal in Ohio.  

I then asked hiom to see the device that they used to clock me.  He said
that he did not want to show me, and that I should take it as that,
unless I would like to go to jail — again (3rd threat).

I have one prior speeding ticket from three years ago.  I was shown the
radar, by the Highway Patrol, because they have to show the offender.

I was wondering if anyone could tell me
1) Is it illegal to have an FOP sticker if you are not a police officer.
   As I said, my sister is one from a different city, and she gave it to
   me.
2) Do police have to show me the device used to "trap me"
3) Can I use the fact that the police were out to probably meet their
   ticket quota for the month.

One detail that I did not mention, is that I was behind a tow truck
while I was passed by several cars.  I was wondering, if Vascar or Radar
picks up a specific object, or is it possible that it can pick up the
wrong vehicle.
e-mail me at
iacov…@zeus.franklin.edu


   ____)                                     Daniel R. Iacovone
  (  )  __    ___  _  .   . __  (___  ___    Columbus, Ohio
    /  (  |   )   ) )  ) /  ) )  )  ) )_     iacov…@zeus.franklin.edu
___(__) \_|/ (__ /_/  //   /_/  /  /  )__

.
posted by admin in Uncategorized and have Comments (8)

8 Responses to “Fighting a supposedly speeding ticket.”

  1. admin says:

    In article <1993Feb10.051613.21…@zeus.franklin.edu> iacov…@zeus.franklin.edu (Daniel R. Iacovone) writes:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    >Saturday morning at approx. 10:00 AM 2-6-93, I was driving on I-70
    >heading East.  I was basically leaving Columbus to go see my parents in
    >Steubenville.  Not two miles from the I-71 and I-70 intersection, I saw
    >about 5 police cruisers on the side of the road.  I checked my speed
    >limit, and it was variable between 55 – 60, which is the speed limit.

    >About a minute after I passed the cruisers, I was pulled over by a
    >cruiser with two police officers in it.  The officer on the passenger
    >side got out and came and asked me for my badge because I have a
    >Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) sticker on my truck.  I said that I was
    >not a police officer, but my sister is and she gave it to me.  He then
    >threatened to take me into jail because I was not an officer and that it
    >was illegal for me to have the sticker.

    >After the threat, he told me I was going 74.2 in a 55 zone.  He went
    >back to the cruiser and checked my license and registration and came
    >back and gave me the ticket.  I asked him to see the radar that had my
    >supposed speed and he said that they did not use radar.  He also
    >threatened to take me into jail because I had a Radar detecter — they
    >are not illegal in Ohio.  

    >I then asked hiom to see the device that they used to clock me.  He said
    >that he did not want to show me, and that I should take it as that,
    >unless I would like to go to jail — again (3rd threat).

    >I have one prior speeding ticket from three years ago.  I was shown the
    >radar, by the Highway Patrol, because they have to show the offender.

    >I was wondering if anyone could tell me
    >1) Is it illegal to have an FOP sticker if you are not a police officer.
    >   As I said, my sister is one from a different city, and she gave it to
    >   me.

    I can’t think of any law that would make the display of such a sticker
    illegal.  Scare tactics if you ask me.

    >2) Do police have to show me the device used to "trap me"

    Depends on the local state law, check with the National Motorists
    Association (info below) and they might be able to help.

    >3) Can I use the fact that the police were out to probably meet their
    >   ticket quota for the month.

    You can make that argument, but the courts won’t likly buy it.  If
    your description is accurate as to what happened, this cop sounds
    like one of the type that shouldn’t have a badge.  Odds are he’d
    say anything to sustain a conviction if you challenge the ticket.
    That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t challenge it.  Do it if only to
    make the state spend the money.  Any challenged ticket usually costs
    more in lost time, processing costs, etc. than the "revenue" that
    comes from being found guilty.

    Besides, by challenging the ticket, there’s always the possibility
    the cop may not show up, etc.  Bottom line…you have nothing
    to lose by fighting the ticket.  What exactly was the speed limit
    anyway.

    Also, how did the cop come to such an exact figure as 74.2 mph
    over the limit.  I’ve seen radar sets before and I don’t recall
    ever seeing the readout in anything other than whole
    numbers (e.g. 72, or 74 or 75, but never 72.6 or 74.2).
    Such a specific number wuld seem to imply using a very exact
    measuring device which you have every right to know was used.
    As above, they may not have to show it to you when you are stopped,
    depending on your state’s laws, but if you file for discovery, then
    all details of the ticket are to be made avilable to you so you
    can prepare your defense.

    >One detail that I did not mention, is that I was behind a tow truck
    >while I was passed by several cars.  I was wondering, if Vascar or Radar
    >picks up a specific object, or is it possible that it can pick up the
    >wrong vehicle.

    RADAR can pickup any of several vehicles if two or more are in
    approximate proximity to each other, there’s no accurate way
    for any cop to be certain if that was the traffic conditions
    at the time.  VASCAR is used where the cop observes the same vehicle
    and uses the VASCAR as an electronic computer stopwatch as
    he Times the vehicle between two predetermined points on the
    highway.  VASCAR is subject to input vaiations of the cop
    based on reflex, etc.  VASCAR is not as accurate as RADAR.

    FOR More help contact the National Motorists Assn:
                call 1-800-882-2785

    They also have an Ohio Chapter: Contact Duke Ganote 513-254-2242

    Standard Disclaimer- Any opinions, etc. are mine and NOT my employer’s.
    ———————————————————————–
    Bill Sohl (K2UNK) BELLCORE (Bell Communications Research, Inc.)
    Morristown, NJ             email via UUCP      bcr!cc!whs70
    201-829-2879 Weekdays      email via Internet  wh…@cc.bellcore.com

  2. admin says:

    In article <1993Feb10.154533.14…@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> wh…@dancer.cc.bellcore.com (sohl,william h) writes:

    - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

    > In article <1993Feb10.051613.21…@zeus.franklin.edu> iacov…@zeus.franklin.edu (Daniel R. Iacovone) writes:
    > >Saturday morning at approx. 10:00 AM 2-6-93, I was driving on I-70
    > >heading East.  I was basically leaving Columbus to go see my parents in
    > >Steubenville.  Not two miles from the I-71 and I-70 intersection, I saw
    > >about 5 police cruisers on the side of the road.  I checked my speed
    > >limit, and it was variable between 55 – 60, which is the speed limit.
    > >About a minute after I passed the cruisers, I was pulled over by a
    > >cruiser with two police officers in it.  The officer on the passenger
    > >side got out and came and asked me for my badge because I have a
    > >Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) sticker on my truck.  I said that I was
    > >not a police officer, but my sister is and she gave it to me.  He then
    > >threatened to take me into jail because I was not an officer and that it
    > >was illegal for me to have the sticker.
    > >After the threat, he told me I was going 74.2 in a 55 zone.  He went
    > >back to the cruiser and checked my license and registration and came
    > >back and gave me the ticket.  I asked him to see the radar that had my
    > >supposed speed and he said that they did not use radar.  He also
    > >threatened to take me into jail because I had a Radar detecter — they
    > >are not illegal in Ohio.  
    > >I then asked hiom to see the device that they used to clock me.  He said
    > >that he did not want to show me, and that I should take it as that,
    > >unless I would like to go to jail — again (3rd threat).

    This is exactly why cops got that tag *pigs*. I would fight it, but
    don’t be surprised if you lose. If Ohio local courts are similar to
    NJ, truth is a joke, cops lie thru their teeth, and judges are nothing
    more than puppets who are paid to close their eyes to this form of
    legal extortion.

    Mark

    n

  3. admin says:

    In article <knauer.729416…@dubius.cs.uiuc.edu>, kna…@dubius.cs.uiuc.edu (Rob Knauerhase) writes:
    > If you fight it, and you admit to going even 1 m.p.h. over 55, you will lose
    > for sure.  You could perhaps get a lesser fine, though; unfortunately, the
    > points (two for basic speeding) will go on your license.

    While 1 mph over the limit is technically a violation, a strong case can be
    made for the fact that vehicle spedometers aren’t that accurate.  Analog
    ones, anyway.  I don’t know how the digital ones work.  Are those cable
    driven as well?

    In Kentucky, I received a schedule of violations and their related fines the
    one time a got a ticket (not for speeding).  The smallest fine listed for
    speeding on interstate highways was at 5 mph.  There was nothing listed for
    1 – 4 mph over.  Surface streets were a different story:  there were fines
    listed for as little as 1 mph over the limit.  I don’t know the case in
    Ohio.

    I read in the paper a few weeks ago that there was a case in Kentucky last
    year in which a motorist had been ticketed for a 1 mph violation.  There was
    no mention of whether or not there was a conviction.

      Tony D. Lowe, The HapMaster  BITNET:   tdlow…@ulkyvx.bitnet
      University of Louisville     INTERNET: tdlow…@ulkyvx.louisville.edu
           "People without a sense of humor don’t have any sense at all."

  4. admin says:

    In <1993Feb10.051613.21…@zeus.franklin.edu> iacov…@zeus.franklin.edu (Daniel R. Iacovone) writes:

    >[...]about 5 police cruisers on the side of the road.

    This is alarming.  I have never heard of speed operations like that so far
    inside the city limits (of Columbus — in Cleveland, it’s sadly all too
    common).  The Columbus Freeway Patrol have a helicopter that they like to
    use instead.

    >I checked my speed
    >limit, and it was variable between 55 – 60, which is the speed limit.

    This is what will do you in if you are truthful.  55-60 is NOT the limit
    at all; it’s 55 exactly and that’s what the judge will tell you.

    Besides, are you positive it’s 55?  I think perhaps it might drop to 50
    for the stretch between (roughly) Mound St. and 71N, where 70 and 71 merge
    and share the downtown stretch.

    >[... officer] got out and came and asked me for my badge because I have a
    >Fraternal Order of Police (FOP) sticker on my truck.  I said that I was
    >not a police officer, but my sister is and she gave it to me.  He then
    >threatened to take me into jail because I was not an officer and that it
    >was illegal for me to have the sticker.

    I cannot imagine that is the case.

    >After the threat, he told me I was going 74.2 in a 55 zone.  He went
    >back to the cruiser and checked my license and registration and came
    >back and gave me the ticket.

    The only way I can think of to clock you at 74.2 would be to divide out the
    time by distance, and even then the tenths place is probably meaningless as
    for accuracy.

    >I asked him to see the radar that had my
    >supposed speed and he said that they did not use radar.  He also
    >threatened to take me into jail because I had a Radar detecter — they
    >are not illegal in Ohio.  
    >[...] I have one prior speeding ticket from three years ago.  I was shown
    >the radar, by the Highway Patrol, because they have to show the offender.

    Radar detectors are of course not illegal in Ohio.  However, they do not
    have to show you the radar instrument.  I have found that Ohio State Highway
    Patrol will [at least on my two run-ins with them :( ], but it is not
    required by law or policy.

    >[...]
    >3) Can I use the fact that the police were out to probably meet their
    >   ticket quota for the month.

    No, since it’s impossible to prove any quota.

    If you fight it, and you admit to going even 1 m.p.h. over 55, you will lose
    for sure.  You could perhaps get a lesser fine, though; unfortunately, the
    points (two for basic speeding) will go on your license.

    Were the officers in question Ohio Highway Patrol, or Columbus Freeway Patrol?
    For all their faults, both are usually very highly trained, courteous, and
    way too efficient for my tastes.

    Rob [Columbus native temporarily stuck in the prarie]

    Rob Knauerhase, University of Illinois @ Urbana, Dept. of Computer Science
    "See, when the GOVERNMENT spends money, it creates jobs; whereas when the
     money is left in the hands of TAXPAYERS, God only knows what they do with it.
     Bake it into pies, probably.  Anything to avoid creating jobs." — Dave Barry

  5. admin says:

    iacov…@zeus.franklin.edu (Daniel R. Iacovone) writes:

    > Saturday morning at approx. 10:00 AM 2-6-93, I was driving on I-70
    > heading East.  I was basically leaving Columbus to go see my parents in
    > Steubenville.  Not two miles from the I-71 and I-70 intersection, I saw
    > about 5 police cruisers on the side of the road.  I checked my speed
    > limit, and it was variable between 55 – 60, which is the speed limit.

    Let me guess.  Near Buckeye Lake?

    > 1) Is it illegal to have an FOP sticker if you are not a police officer.
    >    As I said, my sister is one from a different city, and she gave it to me.

    Anyone can have a FOP sticker.  It is just a stinkin’ union.  That cop
    was messin’ with you.  I’d fight that ticket tooth and nail just give
    that pig a sneer on the way out of the courtroom.

    > 2) Do police have to show me the device used to "trap me"

    I think so.  Not totally sure.

    > 3) Can I use the fact that the police were out to probably meet their
    >    ticket quota for the month.

    You have to *prove* that.  Not a good strategy.

    > One detail that I did not mention, is that I was behind a tow truck
    > while I was passed by several cars.  I was wondering, if Vascar or Radar
    > picks up a specific object, or is it possible that it can pick up the
    > wrong vehicle.

    He didn’t say VASCAR did he?

    Cheers!

    - randy

    <backbone>!mstar!rls!randy    rls!ra…@morningstar.com

  6. admin says:

    One more idea.  Before you go into court, have your speedometer
    checked, and if it’s off, get a mechanic to fix it and give you a note
    saying how much it’s off.  I remember hearing (possibly here) that
    someone successfully fought a ticket by showing that their speedometer
    was slightly off.

    —————>Elisabeth Anne Riba * l…@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu<————–
    SOCKS–THINGS TO DO:  Line litter box with remaining copies of Millie’s book;
    Visit Lincoln Bedroom–leave hairball; Use everything as a scratching post;
    Bring in crystal healer to cleanse the White House of Millie vibes; Take a nap

  7. admin says:

    In rec.autos.driving, rineh…@aramis.rutgers.edu (Mark J. Rinehart) writes:

    >In article <1993Feb10.154533.14…@porthos.cc.bellcore.com> wh…@dancer.cc.bel
    >This is exactly why cops got that tag *pigs*. I would fight it, but
    >don’t be surprised if you lose. If Ohio local courts are similar to
    >NJ, truth is a joke, cops lie thru their teeth, and judges are nothing
    >more than puppets who are paid to close their eyes to this form of
    >legal extortion.

    My first foray into fighting a ticket wound up the same way, just a
    rubber-stamp mickey mouse court. You’ll very likely loose in the first
    court, based on what I saw and experienced.

    I did, however, go hire a lawyer and appealed the ruling. I won. (Sure
    pissed off that pompous prick of a cop;) I also had a witness.

    At present, I’m investigating the likely odds for suing the cop and
    the county for supporting him in a malicious attempt to wrongfully ticket
    me and for perjuring himself in court. (This I can prove, as what he
    said I did was impossible, short of sliding through the turn, flipping
    over the curb and winding up in the trees somewhere at an altitude usually
    not obtained by cars. This obviously did not happen.;)

    Definitely fight the ticket, and be prepared to appeal.

    Also, file a formal complaint against the officer. Mine did a similar
    tactic, including the threats to throw me in jail. I told him outright
    I would be talking to his superior and advised him I had nothing more
    to say to him. His superior told me several things:

    1) after listening, said the ticket was in his opinion justified, and
    he wouldn’t withdraw or dismiss it. (FACT: He has no authority to dismiss
    tickets, it is a state summons, and must be carried out or dismissed
    by a judge, or so they told me.)

    2) tried his damndest to make me not file the complaint. Said I didn’t
    have a basis for filing it. (FACT: This complaint will come in handy
    should I determine it is in my interests to sue. File it anyway, since
    if he gets enough complaints, action will have to be taken, or it could
    be used against him by someone else he has abused, should they go to
    court and investigate this guy)

    I also had a witness, my girlfriend, who testified in court. Her testimony,
    although she was nervous, was consistent with mine and probably helped
    in the final decision by the judge.(It was a triel by judge)

    Ron

  8. admin says:

    Most likely the officer clocked you with VASCAR.  Either he was sitting on
    the ground watching you pass marks on the road with binoculars or someone
    in aircrap timed you and then called your speed down to him.  If it was
    radar, he doesn’t have to show you the speed.  It may vary by state, but
    in VA they have no obligation to show you the speed on the gun.
    ma…@access.digex.com