I’ve been down here in the U.S. for years now, and the place apparently
hasn’t gotten used to me yet.
Please indulge me while I vent my annoyance. I drive with my headlights on
at all times, as do many other people (around here it seems, inexplicably,
to be mostly fellow Saab owners), for the well-documented safety/visibility
reasons that made it law in Canada.
A lot of people can’t deal with this, unfortunately. Once a week, some
pedestrian or other driver will practically pee himself, frantically
pointing at the front of my car, bellowing "Yer LIGHTS er on!" …No shit,
bonehead. Why the conniption? Am I blinding you? I don’t think so.
Whaddya want, a medal? Piss off.
Now if I’ve parked a car and walked away from it, leaving the lights on, I
could accept this — although frankly, if I’ve bought some bullshit car
that’s not advanced enough to cut the headlamps when the key is removed,
that’s my own tough shit. But this is not the case.
You know who you are. It’s called safety, weenie. Deal with it.
^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\\\^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
Thomas A. Darling \\\ Call The Cellar Electronic Community : 215.539.3043
darl…@cellar.org \\\ GEnie: T.DARLING \\ FactHQ "Truth Thru Technology"
v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~\\\~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v
In article <iJ1F0B5w1…@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> an…@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Ben Havens) writes:
Anyone who can’t see a car in broad daylight unless it has headlights
blazing should not be crossing a street, driving a car, or any other such
activities.
Please indulge me while I ask you not to assume I am so dense as to not
realize you’re there. Headlights were devised as an aid for night
vision. They’re still best used as such.
———–
Yes, but what we’re discussing here are called _daytime_ running lights.
Some cars use headlights with a low voltage through the the bulb,
others use extra lenses and reflectors as DRLs.
David Crawford
In article <26e979$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> j…@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr) writes:
>In article <HXHF0B1w1…@cellar.org> darl…@cellar.org (Thomas Darling) writes:
>>Why the conniption? Am I blinding you? I don’t think so.
>I can’t speak for others, but I would answer "yes" to that question.
>Headlights in my rear view mirror really bother me. I can flip the
>mirror to the night position, but then all I see to the rear is the
>headlights (dimmed now so they are not too bright). I would much
>rather see the cars.
Aw c’mon! Daytime running lights run at reduced power (like 30 to 50%), and
every car made after 1990 has them in Canada. I’ve _never_ heard a Canadian
complain that those lights are blinding. Never.
Expect to see them in the U.S. in ’95 as the DOT has made them legal for
use. Most car manufacturers expect to offer them as a no-cost option…
>–
> John Carr (j…@athena.mit.edu)
–
Doug Zolmer Internet: d…@bnr.ca Disclaimer: My opinions only
Bell-Northern Research Ltd. Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | Conform :-
Dept. 7Q21 – Service Control Point – Number Translation Services | Moooo!
In article <HXHF0B1w1…@cellar.org> darl…@cellar.org (Thomas Darling) writes:
>A lot of people can’t deal with this, unfortunately. Once a week, some
>pedestrian or other driver will practically pee himself, frantically
>pointing at the front of my car, bellowing "Yer LIGHTS er on!" …No shit,
>bonehead. Why the conniption? Am I blinding you? I don’t think so.
>Whaddya want, a medal? Piss off.
>You know who you are. It’s called safety, weenie. Deal with it.
It’s called manners, friend – try to get some… how can you get so upset
over some people honestly trying to help out? Geez, maybe you should
learn to smile at helpful folks, and wave a thanks, rather than telling
them to "piss off" – people with your attitude make the roadways the
hostile, dangerous place that they are. I guess Canada never developed
such advanced concepts as giving help without begin asked…. sheesh.
–
–> Travis Stansbury
–> tra…@minerva.cis.yale.edu
I also find headlights annoying, especially during the daytime when they are
not needed. The problems of headlights for oncoming traffic has not been
adequately addressed in todays automobile design.
Jim
J. Graham
In article <HXHF0B1w1…@cellar.org> darl…@cellar.org (Thomas Darling) writes:
>Why the conniption? Am I blinding you? I don’t think so.
I can’t speak for others, but I would answer "yes" to that question.
Headlights in my rear view mirror really bother me. I can flip the
mirror to the night position, but then all I see to the rear is the
headlights (dimmed now so they are not too bright). I would much
rather see the cars.
–
John Carr (j…@athena.mit.edu)
In article <26e979$…@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU> j…@athena.mit.edu (John F Carr) writes:
>In article <HXHF0B1w1…@cellar.org> darl…@cellar.org (Thomas Darling) writes:
>>Why the conniption? Am I blinding you? I don’t think so.
>I can’t speak for others, but I would answer "yes" to that question.
>Headlights in my rear view mirror really bother me. I can flip the
>mirror to the night position, but then all I see to the rear is the
>headlights (dimmed now so they are not too bright). I would much
>rather see the cars.
Low beams in daytime aren’t bad at all. Occasionally some wiseguy
uses the high beams. There’s no reason at all to use the high beams
in daytime.
—
————————————————————————-
David Gaudine, programmer, Concordia University, Loyola Campus, Montreal.
da…@donald.concordia.ca
In article <iJ1F0B5w1…@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> an…@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Ben Havens) writes:
>Anyone who can’t see a car in broad daylight unless it has headlights
>blazing should not be crossing a street, driving a car, or any other such
>activities.
Depends partly on how you define "broad daylight". Some of the usefulness
of daytime running lights is because people forget to turn on their lights
in tunnels and downpours. Occasionally they can also help in more
obscure situations. I didn’t like them at first, especially when few
cars had them, but now that I’m used to them I think they’re a good idea.
>Please indulge me while I ask you not to assume I am so dense as to not
>realize you’re there. Headlights were devised as an aid for night
>vision. They’re still best used as such.
Just because you’ve never failed to see a car coming doesn’t mean you
won’t ever. Headlights are an aid for night vision *and* an aid to
the car’s visiblity; admittedly, more important at night.
—
————————————————————————-
David Gaudine, programmer, Concordia University, Loyola Campus, Montreal.
da…@donald.concordia.ca
JF> Please indulge me while I vent my annoyance. I drive with my
JF> headlights on at all times, as do many other people (around here
JF> it seems, inexplicably, to be mostly fellow Saab owners), for the
JF> well-documented safety/visibility reasons that made it law in
JF> Canada.
Anyone who can’t see a car in broad daylight unless it has headlights
blazing should not be crossing a street, driving a car, or any other such
activities.
Please indulge me while I ask you not to assume I am so dense as to not
realize you’re there. Headlights were devised as an aid for night
vision. They’re still best used as such.
I just returned from a trip to Canada. Don’t the DRL’s run at something
like 80% power? It makes a noticable difference in the annoyance
department….
…offer them as an option…..
Hmm. an option perhaps like those rear windows that don’t open ? Get
ready for a resounding rejection.
There are benefits to being aware of the turning on of one’s headlamps.
Here in the USA daytime lights mean that there is likely something
going on just ahead. When headlights come on, a mental note of caution
is called for, and the act of switching on your lights confirms that.
Usually bad road conditions, weather, or other hazards create a
communicaton between drivers based on headlight signals.
To go driving about in the broad daylight with your headlights on is
the kind of mindless saftey fanticism that will have you wearing
football equipment in your moving vehicle by ’98. Just say No to the
legal-insurance industry.
Jim
In <CCyrsw….@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> jgra…@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (the End) writes:
>There are benefits to being aware of the turning on of one’s headlamps.
>Here in the USA daytime lights mean that there is likely something
>going on just ahead. When headlights come on, a mental note of caution
>is called for, and the act of switching on your lights confirms that.
>Usually bad road conditions, weather, or other hazards create a
Or, don’t forget, the all-important use of headlights to warn about
State Troopers in the median or berm around the curve. Having headlights
on all day would necessitate some other form of inter-driver wallet
protection.
>To go driving about in the broad daylight with your headlights on is
>the kind of mindless saftey fanticism that will have you wearing
>football equipment in your moving vehicle by ’98. Just say No to the
But you could get _hurt_! Why are mandatory daytime headlights, or even
mandatory football padding, any different from mandatory seatbelt usage?
But that’s an issue for another thread.
Rob
—
Rob Knauerhase [kna...@ibeam.intel.com] Intel Mobile Software Lab
"See, when the GOVERNMENT spends money, it creates jobs; whereas when the
money is left in the hands of TAXPAYERS, God only knows what they do with it.
Bake it into pies, probably. Anything to avoid creating jobs." — Dave Barry
>To go driving about in the broad daylight with your headlights on is
>the kind of mindless saftey fanticism that will have you wearing
>football equipment in your moving vehicle by ’98. Just say No to the
>legal-insurance industry.
>Jim
Now, now. Iff’n y’all ‘Muricans are gonna get snarky about daylight running
lights, I guess that’s because y’all drive sooo sloooooow that it don’t
much matter.
Us Canadians, eh, zipping along our two-lane highways (’cause it’s more
scenic than our four-laners) like to pass all them Yankee cars doin’ 55.
(Yeh, the limit here in Ontario is 80 km/h which is 50 MPH, but really
traffic will run 65 MPH +).
To pass safely when closing speeds can be 130-150 MPH, I sure do appreciate
that oncoming traffic will have its lights on. Even at high noon with the
sun out (as it is everywhere in Canada during the summer months), I drive
with my lights on. I wish everyone did.
Ed (me, a mindless safety fanatic?? it is to laugh) Treijs
In article <iJ1F0B5w1…@cybernet.cse.fau.edu>,
Ben Havens <an…@cybernet.cse.fau.edu> wrote:
>Anyone who can’t see a car in broad daylight unless it has headlights
>blazing should not be crossing a street, driving a car, or any other such
>activities.
>Please indulge me while I ask you not to assume I am so dense as to not
>realize you’re there. Headlights were devised as an aid for night
>vision. They’re still best used as such.
NOT! Anything that makes my car more visible can’t be all that bad.
Considering the number of times I’ve almost been hit recently I drive
with my lights on (partly just because I got used to it on my SOs
car which is from canada and doesn’t have a light switch).
WRT your comment about people who shouldn’t be ‘crossing a street…’,
it’s a very well known fact that a large percentage of people driving
in the USA should NOT be. An automobile license in the USA is treated
much too much like a right.
So you just drive without your lights on and get nailed by that guy
pulling out from the parking lot ignoring you, and I’ll drive with
mine on and hopefully miss the same.
Sean
—
"Most American cars are like heavy metal music. Lots of noise and vibration,
but not much performance." – A friend after spending the day car shopping.
Sean Reifschneider, Supreme hack <j…@accum.com>
I got gasoline from 7-11 and my car stopped running. New gas, ran fine.
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
In article <HXHF0B1w1…@cellar.org> darl…@cellar.org (Thomas Darling) writes:
>I’ve been down here in the U.S. for years now, and the place apparently
>hasn’t gotten used to me yet.
>Please indulge me while I vent my annoyance. I drive with my headlights on
>at all times, as do many other people (around here it seems, inexplicably,
>to be mostly fellow Saab owners), for the well-documented safety/visibility
>reasons that made it law in Canada.
>A lot of people can’t deal with this, unfortunately. Once a week, some
>pedestrian or other driver will practically pee himself, frantically
>pointing at the front of my car, bellowing "Yer LIGHTS er on!" …No shit,
>bonehead. Why the conniption? Am I blinding you? I don’t think so.
>Whaddya want, a medal? Piss off.
>Now if I’ve parked a car and walked away from it, leaving the lights on, I
>could accept this — although frankly, if I’ve bought some bullshit car
>that’s not advanced enough to cut the headlamps when the key is removed,
>that’s my own tough shit. But this is not the case.
>You know who you are. It’s called safety, weenie. Deal with it.
>^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\\\^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
>Thomas A. Darling \\\ Call The Cellar Electronic Community : 215.539.3043
>darl…@cellar.org \\\ GEnie: T.DARLING \\ FactHQ "Truth Thru Technology"
>v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~\\\~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v~v
"OI YOU!! YER HEADLIGHTS ARE ON!!!!"
Shaz…
In article <1993Sep7.053024.8…@bcarh54a.bnr.ca> etre…@bnr.ca (John Miller) writes:
>Us Canadians, eh, zipping along our two-lane highways (’cause it’s more
>scenic than our four-laners) like to pass all them Yankee cars doin’ 55.
>(Yeh, the limit here in Ontario is 80 km/h which is 50 MPH, but really
>traffic will run 65 MPH +).
You must live in the slow part of Ontario
. I used to live in Toronto;
speed limits on the freeways (401 and the QEW) are at least 90 km/hr,
everyone coasts at 120 km/hr, and I’ve never gotten a ticket there even
though I often went at 130 ( that was during my younger days).
Where I live now (western Pennsylvania), the roads are so bad that
I don’t *want* to go much past 60 miles/hr. The Pennsylvania
turnpike is one of the worst highways I’ve travelled, and they
add insult to injury by charging $11 to go from Pittsburgh to Philly.
Excerpts from netnews.rec.autos: 7-Sep-93 Re: Daytime running lights…
by John Mil…@bnr.ca
> Us Canadians, eh, zipping along our two-lane highways (’cause it’s more
> scenic than our four-laners) like to pass all them Yankee cars doin’ 55.
> (Yeh, the limit here in Ontario is 80 km/h which is 50 MPH, but really
> traffic will run 65 MPH +).
You got that right. Especially about the scenery part. I went to this
place called North Bay couple weeks ago, and once you clear Toronto and
get on 69 N (or whatever that road is that goes to Parry Sound), it’s
pretty stunning scenery. I don’t know about the Yankee part. I passed
almost everyone who got in my way, and most of them were Ontario
plates….
>To pass safely when closing speeds can be 130-150 MPH, I sure do appreciate
>that oncoming traffic will have its lights on. Even at high noon with the
So do I. I didn’t get more than 100 mph before I ran out of room, but
it’s MUCH easier to see cars coming towards you when they have their
headlites on, esp. if it’s a gray or brown car. Esp. when you guys are
moving towards each other something near 170 mph (;
Oh yeah… I was driving a ’92 Legacy, and yes, those weird things do go
more than 100 mph (unless the speedo’s lying big time
Rajan
(: (-: (= (8 (-8 (8* (-; (; d: (8-*
In article <HXHF0B1w1…@cellar.org>, darl…@cellar.org (Thomas Darling) writes:
|> Please indulge me while I vent my annoyance. I drive with my headlights on
|> at all times, as do many other people (around here it seems, inexplicably,
|> to be mostly fellow Saab owners), for the well-documented safety/visibility
|> reasons that made it law in Canada.
|>
|> A lot of people can’t deal with this, unfortunately. Once a week, some
|> pedestrian or other driver will practically pee himself, frantically
|> pointing at the front of my car, bellowing "Yer LIGHTS er on!" …No shit,
|> bonehead. Why the conniption? Am I blinding you? I don’t think so.
|> Whaddya want, a medal? Piss off.
|>
|> Now if I’ve parked a car and walked away from it, leaving the lights on, I
|> could accept this — although frankly, if I’ve bought some bullshit car
|> that’s not advanced enough to cut the headlamps when the key is removed,
|> that’s my own tough shit. But this is not the case.
Such non-advanced cars comprise the majority of new cars sold today
in the USA, i.e. most American and Japanese cars. I must confess I
am puzzled by this; it is altogether too easy to leave the lights
on after driving in the rain, and people do it all the time. European
cars generally avoid this problem, as well as avoiding the other
problem common to American and Japanese cars: the great ease with
which you can lock your keys in the car.
|>
|> You know who you are. It’s called safety, weenie. Deal with it.
Yes, but if everyone drove with their lights on, how can we tell which
cars are in the funeral procession? :-)
- BK
b…@buck.viewlogic.com (Bradford Kellogg) writes:
>|> Now if I’ve parked a car and walked away from it, leaving the lights on, I
>|> could accept this — although frankly, if I’ve bought some bullshit car
>|> that’s not advanced enough to cut the headlamps when the key is removed,
>|> that’s my own tough shit.
>Such non-advanced cars comprise the majority of new cars sold today
>in the USA, i.e. most American and Japanese cars.
I think you’re mistaken about the Japanese cars; many have warning
tones if the car is turned off with the headlights on. I’m tempted to
say "most" — I’ve rented and test-driven a bunch of Japanese cars and
can’t remember any that *didn’t* have this feature.
I agree that American cars don’t usually do this.
jim frost
j…@centerline.com
Several posters have extolled the virtues of daytime use of running lights and
there have been many discussions of the improved safety aspect of using
lights during the daytime. As a long-time motorcyclist, I can identify
with the desire to be seen and can appreciate any efforts made by someone to
increase their visibility to others on the road.
I would like to point out, hopwever, that when it comes to daytime use of
lights, the lights make a significant impact *only* if vehicles using them
are in the minority. That is, a vehicle with lights on will stand out in
a group of vehicles with no lights on. If *all* vehicles have their lights
on, we are now in the situation where there is nothing to distinguish
one vehicle from another. Lights on is the expected norm and they will
be taken for granted. While having all vehicles have their lights on
improves the visibility of vehicles in a low-density traffic situation,
it adds little advantage in high density urban traffic situations. In such
situations drivers still have to keep track of many vehicles at virtually
the same time and if they all have lights on, no one vehicle has the
advantage. THe situation is the same as if no-one had their lights on.
I would like to know how I can have access to FAQ so that I don’t
take up bandwidth with some questions about radar detectors and
police scanners. However, if someone has summaries about the
above two topics, please e-mail them to me.
thanks
dragos
an…@cybernet.cse.fau.edu (Ben Havens) writes:
>Anyone who can’t see a car in broad daylight unless it has headlights
>blazing should not be crossing a street, driving a car, or any other such
>activities.
Agreed. Unfortunately, there are many, many people out there who
apparently *can’t* see cars without headlights. While they shouldn’t be
out there, they *are*, and I don’t want one spreading blood and guts (or
twisted metal) all over me or my car. I *like* my daytime running lights.
>Please indulge me while I ask you not to assume I am so dense as to not
>realize you’re there. Headlights were devised as an aid for night
>vision. They’re still best used as such.
Just because *you* aren’t that dense doesn’t mean that *everyone* isn’t
that dense. Since "the authorites" don’t want to keep the dense ones off
the road, headlights serve an excellent secondary purpose of making cars
more visible…
–
Dave Halliwell
Department of Geography
University of Alberta
Edmonton, Alberta
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
In article <CCzzBJ….@bigtop.dr.att.com> k…@longs.att.com (131P10000-FranklinKL(DR8219)252) writes:
>Several posters have extolled the virtues of daytime use of running lights and
>there have been many discussions of the improved safety aspect of using
>lights during the daytime. As a long-time motorcyclist, I can identify
>with the desire to be seen and can appreciate any efforts made by someone to
>increase their visibility to others on the road.
>I would like to point out, hopwever, that when it comes to daytime use of
>lights, the lights make a significant impact *only* if vehicles using them
>are in the minority. That is, a vehicle with lights on will stand out in
>a group of vehicles with no lights on. If *all* vehicles have their lights
>on, we are now in the situation where there is nothing to distinguish
>one vehicle from another. Lights on is the expected norm and they will
>be taken for granted. While having all vehicles have their lights on
>improves the visibility of vehicles in a low-density traffic situation,
>it adds little advantage in high density urban traffic situations. In such
>situations drivers still have to keep track of many vehicles at virtually
>the same time and if they all have lights on, no one vehicle has the
>advantage. THe situation is the same as if no-one had their lights on.
This argument comes up every couple of years, but I still don’t buy it.
).
The point of DRLs is not to make a vehicle stand out from other
vehicles; it’s to make it stand out, period. The idea is to make
it easier for other drivers to distinguish your vehicle (of whatever
kind) from the *non-moving* parts of the environment — pavement, trees,
sky, parked cars, etc. Having every vehicle use DRLs is most
certainly not "the same as if no one had their lights on", because
*every* vehicle now becomes more noticeable against the background.
If that doesn’t sound right to you, stop and consider tail lights,
whose sole purpose is to make your car visible to other drivers.
Under your argument, they’re useless, since everyone uses them at
night (at least, I hope they do
Perhaps some motorcylists from Canada or Scandanavia could offer
first-hand reports on how car DRLs have affected their driving
environments.
———————————————————————-
Bob Goudreau Data General Corporation
goudr…@dg-rtp.dg.com 62 Alexander Drive
+1 919 248 6231 Research Triangle Park, NC 27709, USA
goudr…@batgirl.rtp.dg.com (Bob Goudreau) writes:
> This argument comes up every couple of years, but I still don’t buy it.
).
> The point of DRLs is not to make a vehicle stand out from other
> vehicles; it’s to make it stand out, period. The idea is to make
> it easier for other drivers to distinguish your vehicle (of whatever
> kind) from the *non-moving* parts of the environment — pavement, trees,
> sky, parked cars, etc. Having every vehicle use DRLs is most
> certainly not "the same as if no one had their lights on", because
> *every* vehicle now becomes more noticeable against the background.
> If that doesn’t sound right to you, stop and consider tail lights,
> whose sole purpose is to make your car visible to other drivers.
> Under your argument, they’re useless, since everyone uses them at
> night (at least, I hope they do
Sorry if someone asked this already but, as a resident of California
(USA), I have never run across a "DRL." I now understand what they do
but, I was wondering if, on the cars that are equipped with them, these
lights turn on automatically when you start the car? If they don’t I
don’t really see the point of having them since I wouldn’t figure people
would turn them on – UNLESS, there’s some law (even then, some people
would plain forget).
This may sound rather naive but, driving with NO lights on during the
day seems to be convention. The ONLY way you’re going to get people down
here to drive around with lights on during the day is by making these
DRL’s come on automatically when the car is started (that may actually be
the case…like I said earlier, I don’t know about them). If, by some
act of God, the automakers ALL decide to do that, then, heck, it’s okay
by me. The thing is, what do you do with the cars already on the road?
I don’t think anyone’s going to want to use their own money to have them
installed. I guess it’ll be like the seatbelt and 3rd brake light laws
where, if a car was built before a certain year, it’s exempt.
In essence, as good as DRL’s may be, I don’t see a change happening
down here. And, we can’t even THINK about making driving with lights on
24 hours a day a law. Not only would people consider it an
inconvenience, imagine what a pain it would be to enforce it,
particularly at the beginning. Heck, we can’t even properly enforce the
seatbelt law.
riceb…@west.darkside.com (Jeff Chung)
Kirby Puckett’s Number One Fan.