: >  Where can I find out the crash test results?  The April Consumer
: >  Reports didn’t have the Calspan tests for 2 of the 3 cars I’m
: >  looking at: Saab 900S and Volvo 850.   I assume they are
: >  safer than my 3rd choice, the Camry, even with the ’94 Camry’s
: >  side-impact rails and front-and-rear crush zones, because, well,
: >  they’re Saab and Volvo and "everybody knows" how safe they are!
: >  But I have no real rational basis for that conclusion.

: A reputation for outstanding safety is not a rational basis?  You can’t
: be "sure" of course, but generally speaking in Saab and Volvo you are talking
: about two of the safest cars on the road.

  Reputations are psychological and may not necessarily be grounded
  in reality, or they may be based in the past.  Postwar Japanese
  industry turned out junky trinkets and "made in Japan" meant a cheap
  piece of junk.   But the Japanese got serious about quality in the
  1950′s, and by the mid-60′s were producing some very high quality
  manufactured goods.   However it wasn’t until the mid-late 70′s
  when people started buying Japanese cars for their fuel economy
  following the oil embargo, and when Japanese consumer electronc goods
  started chasing US-made ones off the shelves, that their reputation
  began to change.

  Toyota, due mainly to government prodding, has considerably beefed
  up the safety of their Camry for 1994.   But CR has no crash test
  results and the insurance loss figures (average overall and for type)
  are based on the earlier models.

—peter

: I once saw a horrible accident involving a Volvo. I assumed that everyone
: would be killed, but actually no one was injured.  The officer at the scene
: said "good thing they were in a Volvo, or they’d all be dead now".  The
: styling you may not like, but you can’t argue with the safety.

: Therefore, passing one test does not imply passing the other, nor
: does it necessarily imply that you are going to survive in a crash.
: The US uses a full head on collision with a wall, the German one
: an offset collision with a wall. Many argue that the German
: test is more realistic.
: I figure, if you have a car that passes both, you are probably a tad
: better of.

  Where can I find out the crash test results?  The April Consumer
  Reports didn’t have the Calspan tests for 2 of the 3 cars I’m
  looking at: Saab 900S and Volvo 850.   I assume they are
  safer than my 3rd choice, the Camry, even with the ’94 Camry’s
  side-impact rails and front-and-rear crush zones, because, well,
  they’re Saab and Volvo and "everybody knows" how safe they are!
  But I have no real rational basis for that conclusion.

—peter

PS – In 1973 my brother did a re-enactment of that TV advertisement
     Saab used to run where they rolled a car side-over-side down a
     hill, and when it landed (on it’s wheels) it drove off.   The
     only differences were that the demonstration took place at
     midnight; it was somewhat impromptu since he was rounding
     an icy corner at the top of a hill and an inside wheel hit a
     non-icy spot in the road, dug in, and flipped the car; and
     when the car came to rest at the bottom of the hill it was
     on its roof.    But the engine was still running, and there
     was no penetration into the passenger compartment, and no
     injuries to my brother or his passenger except for a minor
     bruise from a piece of wood that they had in the car which
     went flying around the inside.   He turned off the engine,
     and they unstrapped their 3-point belts, and got out and
     walked home.   This was with our original ’69 Saab 99,
     and we immediately went out and bought another Saab, this
     time with fuel injection!

> [ Boy this was a relief!   Based on the Subject heading I thought
>   they were crashing BMW's into other cars!!    8-)    ]
>  Where can I find out the crash test results?  The April Consumer
>  Reports didn’t have the Calspan tests for 2 of the 3 cars I’m
>  looking at: Saab 900S and Volvo 850.   I assume they are
>  safer than my 3rd choice, the Camry, even with the ’94 Camry’s
>  side-impact rails and front-and-rear crush zones, because, well,
>  they’re Saab and Volvo and "everybody knows" how safe they are!
>  But I have no real rational basis for that conclusion.
>—peter

A reputation for outstanding safety is not a rational basis?  You can’t
be "sure" of course, but generally speaking in Saab and Volvo you are talking
about two of the safest cars on the road.

I once saw a horrible accident involving a Volvo. I assumed that everyone
would be killed, but actually no one was injured.  The officer at the scene
said "good thing they were in a Volvo, or they’d all be dead now".  The
styling you may not like, but you can’t argue with the safety.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

In article <Cs8p6r….@ennews.eas.asu.edu> chi…@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu (abrar chisti) writes:
>In article <2uvdgu$…@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
>Paul J.Th. Venhovens  <Paul.Venhov…@umich.edu> wrote:
>>In article <wee-290694113…@129.105.43.82> Brian Wee, w…@ils.nwu.edu
>>writes:

>>The German Magazine "Auto Motor und Sport" has done
>>various crash tests with BMW’s and competitor cars in the
>>past few years. Every year they buy (almost) new cars
>>and expose them all to the same test (offset crash, 55 km/h).
>>This is done by an independent organization. They use dummies
>>to measure HIC values and forces in knees and neck.
>>Furthermore, they measure the deformations of the damaged
>>vehicle.

>>BMW and Mercedes Benz vehicles have always scored very good
>>in these tests. However, a lot of French, Italian and Japanese
>>vehicles didn’t score very well. I remember the test from
>>1 year ago where they have tested the VW Golf, Opel Astra,
>>Citroen DX, Fiat Tipo, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Nissan Sunny.
>>The results were shocking. The three Japanese cars were
>>scoring very bad. Especially the Honda Civic 3d. A real
>>person probably wouldn’t have survived the crash due
>>to the weak structural rigidity of the body. The VW was
>>the winner from this test. I also remember the bad
>>results of the Honda Legend and Nissan Maxima.

>Obviously, the tests were conducted by European (  Read ‘German’ ) magazine.
>Could’t expect much better results from them.

There is some truth to both claims…

The US, which is one of the most important car markets in the world,
has certain safety standards that differ from the much
smaller German market.
As a result, most car manufacturers design their cars so that they
pass the US crash tests.

That a car passes the US test does not necessarily imply that the
car is "safe" because there are ways to "cheat".
For example, the US crash test dictates that the seat has to be
positioned in the middle of the seat rail.
So if your car does not pass because the steering wheel intruded into the
dummy, and you do not want to change you design, just make the seat
rails longer, towards the rear…

Therefore, passing one test does not imply passing the other, nor
does it necessarily imply that you are going to survive in a crash.
The US uses a full head on collision with a wall, the German one
an offset collision with a wall. Many argue that the German
test is more realistic.
I figure, if you have a car that passes both, you are probably a tad
better of.

Jan
—
Jan Vandenbrande                j…@ug.eds.com

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

>in article <Cs8p6r….@ennews.eas.asu.edu> abrar chisti,
>chi…@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu writes:
>>In article <2uvdgu$…@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
>>Paul J.Th. Venhovens  <Paul.Venhov…@umich.edu> wrote:
>>>In article <wee-290694113…@129.105.43.82> Brian Wee, w…@ils.nwu.edu
>>>writes:
>>>The German Magazine "Auto Motor und Sport" has done
>>>various crash tests with BMW’s and competitor cars in the
>>>past few years. Every year they buy (almost) new cars
>……………
>>>Try to obtain these reprints if you’re interested.

>>>Paul Venhovens

>>Obviously, the tests were conducted by European (  Read ‘German’ )
>magazine.
>>Could’t expect much better results from them.

>Well, you will change your mind if you look at the photos
>of a deformed Legend, Maxima or Civic and compare
>these with thoroughly engineered vehicles.

Well, I have not come across any such ‘deformed’ vehicle. Maybe, I  will
change my mind if I come across one. Right now, I am perfectly satisfied
with my accord/legend.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

>This has nothing
>to do with being published in a German magazine. This is
>the standard reaction of someone driving in one of those weak
>vehicles telling him/herself that he/she is driving in a wonderful
>SAVE vehicle, but somehow keeps in his/her mind that he/she
>is joking him/herself! Wake up: An airbag will NOT
>save your live if you are involved in an accident with
>one of those soap-boxes!

>Crash tests have nothing to do with subjective rating.
>The numbers can be measured objectively and this is done
>with the same instruments, in an identical test with
>the same speed. Do you really think that the publisher
>intentionally weakens the structural rigidity of a non-German
>car by just removing some metal pieces of the coach?

Not necessarily true. But some info can be hidden and some positive
results overlooked.

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

>Paul.

>Obviously, the tests were conducted by European (  Read ‘German’ ) magazine.
>Could’t expect much better results from them.

The problem with some cars doing badly on the offset-crash is that nowadays
cars are designed to pass the standard crash tests, which don’t include
offset crashes (those have significantly different forces acting on the car)
However, a pure frontal crash is very uncommon. It has nothing to do with
magazines, as the tests are conducted by an independent laboratory. Expect
better results with safer cars

Marcus Bonse                          email: m.h.w.bo…@wbmt.tudelft.nl
Delft University of Technology
Lab. for Micro Engineering

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

chi…@enuxsa.eas.asu.edu writes:
>In article <2uvdgu$…@lastactionhero.rs.itd.umich.edu>,
>Paul J.Th. Venhovens  <Paul.Venhov…@umich.edu> wrote:
>>In article <wee-290694113…@129.105.43.82> Brian Wee, w…@ils.nwu.edu
>>writes:
>>The German Magazine "Auto Motor und Sport" has done
>>various crash tests with BMW’s and competitor cars in the
>>past few years. Every year they buy (almost) new cars
……………
>>Try to obtain these reprints if you’re interested.

>>Paul Venhovens

>Obviously, the tests were conducted by European (  Read ‘German’ )
magazine.
>Could’t expect much better results from them.

Well, you will change your mind if you look at the photos
of a deformed Legend, Maxima or Civic and compare
these with thoroughly engineered vehicles. This has nothing
to do with being published in a German magazine. This is
the standard reaction of someone driving in one of those weak
vehicles telling him/herself that he/she is driving in a wonderful
SAVE vehicle, but somehow keeps in his/her mind that he/she
is joking him/herself! Wake up: An airbag will NOT
save your live if you are involved in an accident with
one of those soap-boxes!

Crash tests have nothing to do with subjective rating.
The numbers can be measured objectively and this is done
with the same instruments, in an identical test with
the same speed. Do you really think that the publisher
intentionally weakens the structural rigidity of a non-German
car by just removing some metal pieces of the coach?

Paul.

>Does anybody know where to get the results of car crash tests of BMWs
>versus other cars in its range?  On-line sources, books, magazines, etc?
>Or even if it’s not a comparative study, just information on crash
tests.  

>Would appreciate any pointers.  Thanks a million!

The German Magazine "Auto Motor und Sport" has done
various crash tests with BMW’s and competitor cars in the
past few years. Every year they buy (almost) new cars
and expose them all to the same test (offset crash, 55 km/h).
This is done by an independent organization. They use dummies
to measure HIC values and forces in knees and neck.
Furthermore, they measure the deformations of the damaged
vehicle.

BMW and Mercedes Benz vehicles have always scored very good
in these tests. However, a lot of French, Italian and Japanese
vehicles didn’t score very well. I remember the test from
1 year ago where they have tested the VW Golf, Opel Astra,
Citroen DX, Fiat Tipo, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Nissan Sunny.
The results were shocking. The three Japanese cars were
scoring very bad. Especially the Honda Civic 3d. A real
person probably wouldn’t have survived the crash due
to the weak structural rigidity of the body. The VW was
the winner from this test. I also remember the bad
results of the Honda Legend and Nissan Maxima.

Unfortunately, I have all the Auto Motor und Sport
issues at home in The Netherlands. But the publisher
has made several reprints of the articles (in German).
They also sell the video tapes with the tests (PAL system).
Try to obtain these reprints if you’re interested.

Paul Venhovens

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -

>In article <wee-290694113…@129.105.43.82> Brian Wee, w…@ils.nwu.edu
>writes:
>>Does anybody know where to get the results of car crash tests of BMWs
>>versus other cars in its range?  On-line sources, books, magazines, etc?
>>Or even if it’s not a comparative study, just information on crash
>tests.  

>>Would appreciate any pointers.  Thanks a million!

>The German Magazine "Auto Motor und Sport" has done
>various crash tests with BMW’s and competitor cars in the
>past few years. Every year they buy (almost) new cars
>and expose them all to the same test (offset crash, 55 km/h).
>This is done by an independent organization. They use dummies
>to measure HIC values and forces in knees and neck.
>Furthermore, they measure the deformations of the damaged
>vehicle.

>BMW and Mercedes Benz vehicles have always scored very good
>in these tests. However, a lot of French, Italian and Japanese
>vehicles didn’t score very well. I remember the test from
>1 year ago where they have tested the VW Golf, Opel Astra,
>Citroen DX, Fiat Tipo, Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla and Nissan Sunny.
>The results were shocking. The three Japanese cars were
>scoring very bad. Especially the Honda Civic 3d. A real
>person probably wouldn’t have survived the crash due
>to the weak structural rigidity of the body. The VW was
>the winner from this test. I also remember the bad
>results of the Honda Legend and Nissan Maxima.

>Unfortunately, I have all the Auto Motor und Sport
>issues at home in The Netherlands. But the publisher
>has made several reprints of the articles (in German).
>They also sell the video tapes with the tests (PAL system).
>Try to obtain these reprints if you’re interested.

>Paul Venhovens

Obviously, the tests were conducted by European (  Read ‘German’ ) magazine.
Could’t expect much better results from them.

Just my .02c  

Perhaps you could do some testing and post your results here.  You might be
able to get a laptop and modem hooked up from the hospital